Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoodeThat's fine but you were wrong when you claimed they wanted the iPhone.
I never claimed they wanted an iPhone. What they want is a
functionality that Apple provides to Apple product buyers w/o the step
of buying the Apple product.
They don't want an "Apple product".
Otherwise they wouldn't be using Android.
And, more to the point, Android wouldn't be something like 85% of the TAM.
If they wanted an "Apple product", Apple would have that 85% instead.
Apple is falling fast in the world market specifically because people do
NOT want the iPhone. They want Android phones (3% want Huawei too).
What those few people (mostly in Europe) want is free MMS attachments.
Which for that subset of people, their carrier doesn't provide them.
One way to get that free MMS attachments is to use WhatsApp servers.
Or Apple servers.
They're the same thing.
Thy simply reach different users.
Anyway, when Apple finally catches up with RCS, Beeper won't likely matter.
Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoodeNow you seem to understand - but at first you didn't appear to understand
what they wanted. They just want the server. Not the iPhone itself.
Which is actually what I said. I never said they wanted iPhones. I said
they wanted the functionality.
They don't even want that because WhatsApp 100% replaces the iPhone.
What they want has NOTHING to do with an iPhone.
What they want is an Internet server.
Any server that reaches people will do.
WhatsApp reaches people.
So does the Apple messaging servers.
Anyway, when Apple finally catches up with RCS, Beeper won't likely matter.
Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoodeIt's not Android that doesn't serve their needs.
It's their crappy carrier.
Well, also Android. It does not have the functionality that Apple
provide on Apple products.
You're joking, right?
If an Android user will put up with logging into the company server then
that Android user has something like a hundred times what an iPhone has.
Take the example of this app, which does more than iMessage ever could do.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=xyz.klinker.messenger
Notice that App reaches all Apple and Android users, unlike WhatsApp.
But the user has to be willing to log into their Internet servers first.
Post by Alan BrowneAnd Apple should not be compelled to provide it to non-Apple product users.
Nobody said Apple should be compelled to make their servers available to
the rest of the world. Apple wrote crappy code that did that for them.
When Beeper took advantage of Apple's crappy code, Apple wised up.
One by one Apple closed the multiple loopholes in Apple's crappy code.
I commend Apple for finally looking at their own code for once.
That's a good thing because its users have a more secure implementation.
Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoodeYou need to try to understand it's not "Android" or the "iPhone".
They just want the dumb-terminal aspect of the iPhone to reach its users.
It's not a "dumb terminal". It's an integrated function of the an app,
an OS, a service and servers. It is particular to Apple products.
The Messages app doesn't work the way you claim if you don't log into the
mainframe so in that respect the iPhone is very much a dumb terminal.
Post by Alan BrowneThus, Android users have no inherent right to use it.
Nobody said they did. All Beeper did was take advantage of the well known
fact that Apple writes crappy code. Just like that teenager did when he
broke five holes in FaceTime. Just like hackers do when they wrote the
dozens of zero-click holes in Apple's Messaging.
You should be worried more about the hackers writing those many zero-click
iOS holes than the few Android users in Europe who want cheaper MMS images.
Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoodeThey want the server only. The Apple server. Which goes to Apple customers.
Which I've said all along and you're trying to cast as if I hadn't.
OK. When you stop saying Android users want the iPhone, then you'll have
understood why the world market is something like 85% Android & not iOS.
There's a reason nobody wants iOS except half the people in the richest
countries in the world who are already 100% on the Internet but most of the
world doesn't want the use model of a dumb terminal that Apple provides.
Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoodeThey don't want the iPhone.
Never said they did.
Android is something like 85% of the world market for the same reason that
the iPhone is more than 1/2 of the US market - which is in the rich
countries people can afford to buy into Apple's dumb-terminal concept which
requires access to the Internet but in most of the world, they can't.
Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoodeAnd the problem isn't Android.
The problem is Android does not (can not) support the function.
No. I get free MMS attachments. Many people in the USA do.
And the function is supported for those who don't.
It just costs them money.
Why can't you understand that simple concept?
That the iPhone is a dumb terminal allows them to use Apple's mainframe
servers to log into and send their MMS attachments for free. That's it.
Post by Alan BrowneAny
"bolt on" workarounds using Android phones and separate servers to
emulate the service are clearly violating Apple's property.
All they needed was Apple's mainframe servers on the Internet.
And a web browser.
They don't even need Android phones.
They just need Apple's servers.
They could have done it from a Mac had they wanted to.
Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoodeYou don't seem to completely understand that critical distinction.
It doesn't matter how you construe the distinction (as badly as you do),
but simply that the service in discussion is an Apple product meant for
Apple product buyers who are given express right to use that service
whereas Android users are never offered the right to use that service.
So, some 3rd party workaround is violating Apple's property.
There is no violation that you've pointed out that is of a legal nature.
What they did Apple didn't like, so in _that_ sense, it's a violation.
But it's no different than a hacker writing zero-click Messages holes.
It's Apple's fault for writing the crappy insecure code that allowed it.
Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoodeThey want two things that I've said multiple times and you still think that
an Android user would lower himself to the level of an iPhone. He won't.
I never said an Android user should do anything he didn't want to do.
OTOH, if he wants access to Apple's servers (their property) the legal
way to do so is to buy Apple's products.
Stop it with the "legal way" as you haven't cited a single legal case.
Apple hasn't sued Beeper. It's likely Apple can't (successfully) sue them.
The reason is all Beeper did was use Apple's crappy server implementations.
Which Apple subsequently fixed once they found out that Beeper had done it.
Had Apple tested their mainframe servers, it never would have happened.
Post by Alan BrowneSince that would be such a horrible thing for a virtuous Android user, I
guess they'll just have to forego the advantages of of Apple's iMessage
services.
Stop saying it's "Android users" without saying it's only those Android
users who have a crappy carrier who charges them for MMS attachments.
Otherwise, the Android user already has a messaging app superior to iOS's.
Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoodeThe problem isn't Android.
Indeed. Since the iMessage service is for Apple product buyers it
doesn't really relate to Android users at all. They simply are denied
using it because they did not buy the requisite Apple product.
You keep thinking it's all Android users, and it's just not.
Android already has superior messaging.
The problem is only a few select few get charged for their MMS images.
That issue will likely disappear when Apple finally implements RCS.
Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoodeIt's their crappy carrier's charging model.
It's certainly not the carrier's problem - they happily, and at no extra
charge (in most cases - data/month caps or some such can apply), handle
Apple iMessage traffic from Apple devices to/from Apple servers.
The problem isn't for the carrier. The problem is for the user.
You and I have better carriers. They don't.
So I have no use for Apple's dumb-terminal concept of the iPhone.
But they do.
That's all I'm trying to explain to you.
I'm not advocating the model.
Even RCS buys me nothing when Apple finally implements it later this year.
Because I already have free MMS attachments in my messaging app.
Without having to be forced to log into the mainframe servers.
Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoodeThink about the guy in Europe who is charged for each MMS attachment.
1. He doesn't want the iPhone. Stop thinking that. An iPhone is crap.
iPhone's are fantastic - and they get Apple's server functions included.
Android devices do not.
I'm sure you feel the iPhone is fantastic and I'm happy for you.
But there's so much the Apple iPhone implementation of a dumb terminal
can't do that I wouldn't be happy with it, but I'm glad you're happy.
This isn't about us anyway.
It's about the few users who get charged for MMS attachments.
Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoode2. He wants the Apple *server*. (Which is no different than the WA Server).
Apple's servers are freely available to people who buy Apple products
such as best in class iPhones, iPads and Macs.
That's not entirely true since we already agreed that Apple's use model is
to make the iPhone into a dumb terminal which must access the Apple
mainframe servers in order to do most of what you like about Messages.
What Beeper did was tap into the poor implementation of that Apple server.
Post by Alan BrownePost by Sten deJoode3. He wants the fact that Apple server *allows MMS over the Internet*.
Great, then get the Apple products that allow that.
You don't get it that only people in the richest countries in the world can
afford the dumb terminal design of the iPhone which requires the use of
Apple's mainframe servers in order to do most of what you like about it.
Admittedly that's more than 1/2 the people in the United States though.
And those are the people that the Beeper customer was trying to reach.
Anyway, when Apple finally implements RCS, this will no longer be an issue.