Discussion:
End of x86 ?
(too old to reply)
JF Mezei
2017-01-05 01:21:23 UTC
Permalink
There have long been rumours that Apple might consider the possibility
of forming a commitee to look into feasability of considering moving its
computers to ARM architecture.


Today at CES, Qualcomm announced that its new Snapdragon 835 will
support full Windows, including running legacy apps (not clear if via
emulator).
http://mobilesyrup.com/2017/01/03/with-the-snapdragon-835-qualcomm-aims-to-move-into-pc-silicon/
Any chance there might be industry-wide move from x86 to ARM or is this
some PR attempt that is more likely to fizzle without any impact on the
industry ?

Should iindustry go ARM, it would make for interesting dynamics with
Apple able to produce its own chips and perhaps giving it an edge, while
the remmaining PC makers would relty on Qualcom and maybe intel for ARM
based chips ?

(In 1997, Intel acquired StrongARM righst from Digital Equipent corp, so
I wonder if there is anything usable from that agreement today in terms
of Intel dciding to produce ARM chips or whether it would have to
negotiate whole new agreement.

Since ARM is a fab-less company, it wouldn't have objections to Intel or
AMD using its designs, would it ?
nospam
2017-01-05 03:53:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
There have long been rumours that Apple might consider the possibility
of forming a commitee to look into feasability of considering moving its
computers to ARM architecture.
apple is *well* past that.
Post by JF Mezei
Today at CES, Qualcomm announced that its new Snapdragon 835 will
support full Windows, including running legacy apps (not clear if via
emulator).
a few weeks ago, microsoft announced that they have 32 bit apps running
at usable speeds on arm chips.

things are about to get *real* interesting for the entire industry.
android
2017-01-05 06:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by JF Mezei
There have long been rumours that Apple might consider the possibility
of forming a commitee to look into feasability of considering moving its
computers to ARM architecture.
apple is *well* past that.
Post by JF Mezei
Today at CES, Qualcomm announced that its new Snapdragon 835 will
support full Windows, including running legacy apps (not clear if via
emulator).
a few weeks ago, microsoft announced that they have 32 bit apps running
at usable speeds on arm chips.
things are about to get *real* interesting for the entire industry.
Soo... What's your idea of the ETA on them new ARM based Mac Pros?

<http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac_Pro>
--
Bats can't tell us apart!


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Lewis
2017-01-05 07:50:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by android
Post by nospam
Post by JF Mezei
There have long been rumours that Apple might consider the possibility
of forming a commitee to look into feasability of considering moving its
computers to ARM architecture.
apple is *well* past that.
Post by JF Mezei
Today at CES, Qualcomm announced that its new Snapdragon 835 will
support full Windows, including running legacy apps (not clear if via
emulator).
a few weeks ago, microsoft announced that they have 32 bit apps running
at usable speeds on arm chips.
things are about to get *real* interesting for the entire industry.
Soo... What's your idea of the ETA on them new ARM based Mac Pros?
IF there is a ARM-based Mac, and that is exceedingly unlikely, it will
be something like the MacBook One. However, it means giving up
Thunderbolt 3 as even a possibility on that machine.

There are many reasons to think an ARM Mac will never happen, but rather
than repeat them, I'll refer to Jason Snell, who said it all and then
some.

<http://www.macworld.com/article/3143953/macs/why-apple-probably-wont-make-an-arm-powered-mac.html>

or

<https://goo.gl/eSEI4l>
--
There's a city in my mind Come along and take that ride
And it's all right, baby it's all right
And it's very far away But it's growing day by day
And it's all right, baby it's all right
nospam
2017-01-05 14:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
IF there is a ARM-based Mac, and that is exceedingly unlikely, it will
be something like the MacBook One. However, it means giving up
Thunderbolt 3 as even a possibility on that machine.
the retina macbook currently doesn't have thunderbolt at all, so
there's nothing to give up.
Post by Lewis
There are many reasons to think an ARM Mac will never happen, but rather
than repeat them, I'll refer to Jason Snell, who said it all and then
some.
<http://www.macworld.com/article/3143953/macs/why-apple-probably-wont-make-an-arm-powered-mac.html>
there are also many reasons to think an arm mac will happen.

jason is mistaken.
Lewis
2017-01-06 00:31:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Lewis
IF there is a ARM-based Mac, and that is exceedingly unlikely, it will
be something like the MacBook One. However, it means giving up
Thunderbolt 3 as even a possibility on that machine.
the retina macbook currently doesn't have thunderbolt at all, so
there's nothing to give up.
Please reread the sentence you quoted.

See what I said?

See how you responded to something I didn't say?
Post by nospam
Post by Lewis
There are many reasons to think an ARM Mac will never happen, but rather
than repeat them, I'll refer to Jason Snell, who said it all and then
some.
<http://www.macworld.com/article/3143953/macs/why-apple-probably-wont-make-an-arm-powered-mac.html>
there are also many reasons to think an arm mac will happen.
No, there really aren't. There is one, and it's not very compelling.
Post by nospam
jason is mistaken.
You cannot possibly say that until Apple switches the Mac to ARM, which
isn't going to happen.
--
Let him who desires peace, prepare for war.
nospam
2017-01-06 04:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by nospam
Post by Lewis
There are many reasons to think an ARM Mac will never happen, but rather
than repeat them, I'll refer to Jason Snell, who said it all and then
some.
<http://www.macworld.com/article/3143953/macs/why-apple-probably-wont-make-
an-arm-powered-mac.html>
there are also many reasons to think an arm mac will happen.
No, there really aren't. There is one, and it's not very compelling.
there are numerous reasons and they're rather compelling.
Post by Lewis
Post by nospam
jason is mistaken.
You cannot possibly say that until Apple switches the Mac to ARM, which
isn't going to happen.
you cannot possibly say that unless apple has disclosed to you that
they have absolutely no plans to do so, which they have not.

the writing is on the wall that not only is it highly likely to happen,
but that it's pretty much a given. the question is not if, but when.
Lewis
2017-01-06 04:50:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Lewis
Post by nospam
Post by Lewis
There are many reasons to think an ARM Mac will never happen, but rather
than repeat them, I'll refer to Jason Snell, who said it all and then
some.
<http://www.macworld.com/article/3143953/macs/why-apple-probably-wont-make-
an-arm-powered-mac.html>
there are also many reasons to think an arm mac will happen.
No, there really aren't. There is one, and it's not very compelling.
there are numerous reasons and they're rather compelling.
Obviously not, or Apple would already have made the MacBook ARM. They
could have, the iPad Pro is comparable in benchmarks.

And I see you've failed to mention any of these compelling reasons.
Post by nospam
Post by Lewis
Post by nospam
jason is mistaken.
You cannot possibly say that until Apple switches the Mac to ARM, which
isn't going to happen.
you cannot possibly say that unless apple has disclosed to you that
they have absolutely no plans to do so, which they have not.
No, that's not how facts work. Jason is right right up until the moment
Apple switches the Mac line to ARM.
Post by nospam
the writing is on the wall that not only is it highly likely to happen,
but that it's pretty much a given. the question is not if, but when.
You will, of course, believe what you wish.
--
The fact that Bob and John are married does nothing to diminish anyone
else's marriage any more than a black woman marrying a white man, a Jew
marrying a Catholic, or an ugly Lyle marrying a Pretty Woman
nospam
2017-01-06 14:18:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by nospam
Post by Lewis
Post by nospam
Post by Lewis
There are many reasons to think an ARM Mac will never happen, but rather
than repeat them, I'll refer to Jason Snell, who said it all and then
some.
<http://www.macworld.com/article/3143953/macs/why-apple-probably-wont-ma
ke-an-arm-powered-mac.html>
there are also many reasons to think an arm mac will happen.
No, there really aren't. There is one, and it's not very compelling.
there are numerous reasons and they're rather compelling.
Obviously not, or Apple would already have made the MacBook ARM. They
could have, the iPad Pro is comparable in benchmarks.
it simply means the project is not done yet.
Post by Lewis
And I see you've failed to mention any of these compelling reasons.
they've been mentioned in various threads, including the one above,
where you say the ipad pro is comparable in benchmarks.

it should be obvious that macos on essentially the same hardware not
only exists, but is an active project.

perhaps the biggest clue is bitcode, where apps can be recompiled on
the fly for a different cpu when downloaded. this would make a
transition to a new architecture essentially painless for users.
Post by Lewis
Post by nospam
Post by Lewis
Post by nospam
jason is mistaken.
You cannot possibly say that until Apple switches the Mac to ARM, which
isn't going to happen.
you cannot possibly say that unless apple has disclosed to you that
they have absolutely no plans to do so, which they have not.
No, that's not how facts work. Jason is right right up until the moment
Apple switches the Mac line to ARM.
that's twisting things to fit your mistaken beliefs.

jason is making a *prediction* about what apple will or will not do in
the future.

the first reason he cites is windows compatibility. microsoft has
announced that windows will run on arm, so that one can be discarded
entirely.

he goes on to say an arm-mac would need additional ports. the retina
macbook has just one port, so that reason is not very convincing at all
and nothing prevents apple from designing an arm-mac with additional
ports.

he mentions recompiling all of the apps, which is actually the least
painful because of bitcode. it's also not a stretch to think that apple
would include a compatibility layer for intel-native apps that aren't
in the app store. they've done that twice already, for the previous two
processor transitions.

tl;dr the reasons he gives are weak.
Post by Lewis
Post by nospam
the writing is on the wall that not only is it highly likely to happen,
but that it's pretty much a given. the question is not if, but when.
You will, of course, believe what you wish.
as will you.
Alan Browne
2017-01-06 13:29:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by nospam
Post by Lewis
<http://www.macworld.com/article/3143953/macs/why-apple-probably-wont-make-an-arm-powered-mac.html>
A well written piece. Does not make it the Apple plan, however.
Post by Lewis
Post by nospam
there are also many reasons to think an arm mac will happen.
No, there really aren't. There is one, and it's not very compelling.
Post by nospam
jason is mistaken.
You cannot possibly say that until Apple switches the Mac to ARM, which
isn't going to happen.
It's more likely than not, especially at the MBA end of the line.

It's even possible to have a very long period of ARM and x86 coexistence
since building both the OS and apps for it is very processor agnostic.
--
"If war is God's way of teaching Americans geography, then
recession is His way of teaching everyone a little economics."
..Raj Patel, The Value of Nothing.
JF Mezei
2017-01-06 19:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
It's even possible to have a very long period of ARM and x86 coexistence
since building both the OS and apps for it is very processor agnostic.
Once/If Apple decides to move OS-X to ARM, any/all new computers will be
ARM based. It will not release new x86 based machines, unless it was
work already in pipeline and near completion.

Also, if ARM can be scaled up to high performance, it is likely it will
advance faster than x86 and producing slower x86 based machines doesn't
make much sense.

If you look at Rosetta, there was money involved and eventually, the
plug had to be pulled on it. If Apple builds its own, this could be
different and long term co-existence
Alan Browne
2017-01-06 19:58:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
It's even possible to have a very long period of ARM and x86 coexistence
since building both the OS and apps for it is very processor agnostic.
Once/If Apple decides to move OS-X to ARM, any/all new computers will be
ARM based. It will not release new x86 based machines, unless it was
work already in pipeline and near completion.
My immediately prior post applies.
--
"If war is God's way of teaching Americans geography, then
recession is His way of teaching everyone a little economics."
..Raj Patel, The Value of Nothing.
JF Mezei
2017-01-05 18:26:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
<http://www.macworld.com/article/3143953/macs/why-apple-probably-wont-make-an-arm-powered-mac.html>
I am not sure Thunderbolt licensing would be a big thing. And for EFI,
isn't it "open" ? (and consider that on Macs, Apple has a "proprietary"
version of EFI with its own additions that allow it to traverse and load
from HFS+ disk without needing to load that logic from the EFI partition
of the system drive. (and has sheltered users from EFI access).

Also, Apple already does considerable amount of work on its motherboards
instead of just buying off the shelf "reference designs".

But yeah, the Intel solution does bring with it integrated memory
controller that makes multi core and multi CPU perform, something not
needed on portable devices yet.

But, since Apple already does lot of the grunt work for the IOS version
of Ax chips, the big question is the incremental work needed to produce
the "PC" version of the chip with the advanced memory controller etc.

The PC market may not be growing, but it is still a large market. Growth
is possible by stealing market share from competitors. If competitors
are stuck on x86 and you're on a fast advancing platform, you stand to
gain serious performance advantage and steal market share.

And this is especially true of laptops where ARM based laptops could
have huge leap in battery autonomy.

Oh, and since Windows is now also native to ARM, you should be able to
boot the ARN based Windows on a "Mac".
nospam
2017-01-05 18:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
And this is especially true of laptops where ARM based laptops could
have huge leap in battery autonomy.
bingo.

smaller batteries for similar runtimes, which means thinner, lighter
and less expensive laptops.
Post by JF Mezei
Oh, and since Windows is now also native to ARM, you should be able to
boot the ARN based Windows on a "Mac".
that too.
nospam
2017-01-05 14:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by android
Post by nospam
Post by JF Mezei
There have long been rumours that Apple might consider the possibility
of forming a commitee to look into feasability of considering moving its
computers to ARM architecture.
apple is *well* past that.
Post by JF Mezei
Today at CES, Qualcomm announced that its new Snapdragon 835 will
support full Windows, including running legacy apps (not clear if via
emulator).
a few weeks ago, microsoft announced that they have 32 bit apps running
at usable speeds on arm chips.
things are about to get *real* interesting for the entire industry.
Soo... What's your idea of the ETA on them new ARM based Mac Pros?
who said it would be in a mac pro?

one of the key advantages to arm is the *low* power requirements.
android
2017-01-05 15:03:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by android
Post by nospam
Post by JF Mezei
There have long been rumours that Apple might consider the possibility
of forming a commitee to look into feasability of considering moving its
computers to ARM architecture.
apple is *well* past that.
Post by JF Mezei
Today at CES, Qualcomm announced that its new Snapdragon 835 will
support full Windows, including running legacy apps (not clear if via
emulator).
a few weeks ago, microsoft announced that they have 32 bit apps running
at usable speeds on arm chips.
things are about to get *real* interesting for the entire industry.
Soo... What's your idea of the ETA on them new ARM based Mac Pros?
who said it would be in a mac pro?
Well, no new of them in over three years:

<http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac_Pro>

They, Apple is going lose signifiant an amount of market cred if they
don't show anything new and committing soon...
--
teleportation kills
nospam
2017-01-05 15:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by android
Post by nospam
Post by android
Post by nospam
things are about to get *real* interesting for the entire industry.
Soo... What's your idea of the ETA on them new ARM based Mac Pros?
who said it would be in a mac pro?
<http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac_Pro>
They, Apple is going lose signifiant an amount of market cred if they
don't show anything new and committing soon...
blame intel.

intel's repeated delays is yet another reason why there will be arm
macs. apple is not thrilled with that.
android
2017-01-05 15:23:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by android
Post by nospam
Post by android
Post by nospam
things are about to get *real* interesting for the entire industry.
Soo... What's your idea of the ETA on them new ARM based Mac Pros?
who said it would be in a mac pro?
<http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac_Pro>
They, Apple is going lose signifiant an amount of market cred if they
don't show anything new and committing soon...
blame intel.
intel's repeated delays is yet another reason why there will be arm
macs. apple is not thrilled with that.
I'm thrilled and exited! I was very disappointed when Macinsoft went
from RISC to CISC and think that a return to RISC could be totally
tuttifrutti!

Sooo... What's your take on the ETA of them new Mac Pros, regardless of
architecture?
--
teleportation kills
nospam
2017-01-05 15:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by android
Sooo... What's your take on the ETA of them new Mac Pros, regardless of
architecture?
apple has already stated that the rest of the mac lineup will be
updated this year.
android
2017-01-05 19:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by android
Sooo... What's your take on the ETA of them new Mac Pros, regardless of
architecture?
apple has already stated that the rest of the mac lineup will be
updated this year.
Cook in December (Tech Crunch):

"Some folks in the media have raised the question about whether we¹re
committed to desktops. If there¹s any doubt about that with our teams,
let me be very clear: we have great desktops in our roadmap. Nobody
should worry about that."

That's kinda vague...
--
teleportation kills
nospam
2017-01-05 19:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by android
Post by nospam
Post by android
Sooo... What's your take on the ETA of them new Mac Pros, regardless of
architecture?
apple has already stated that the rest of the mac lineup will be
updated this year.
"Some folks in the media have raised the question about whether we¹re
committed to desktops. If there¹s any doubt about that with our teams,
let me be very clear: we have great desktops in our roadmap. Nobody
should worry about that."
That's kinda vague...
what did you expect? exact specs & release dates well ahead of actual
announcements?
Lewis
2017-01-06 00:37:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by android
Sooo... What's your take on the ETA of them new Mac Pros, regardless of
architecture?
apple has already stated that the rest of the mac lineup will be
updated this year.
No they haven't.
--
When the routine bites hard / and ambitions are low And the resentment
rides high / but emotions won't grow And we're changing our ways, /
taking different roads Then love, love will tear us apart again
Tim McNamara
2017-01-05 23:46:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by android
They, Apple is going lose signifiant an amount of market cred if they
don't show anything new and committing soon...
blame intel. intel's repeated delays is yet another reason why there
will be arm macs. apple is not thrilled with that.
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's failure
to produce anything new since Jobs died. Other companies have updated
their product regardless of Intel. Apple is in a holding pattern
milking the iPhone as long as they can and they appear to have nothing-
nothing at all- in the tank.

They've got the iPhone of which sales are OK (would be great for most
other companies but only so-so for Apple), the iPad which pretty much
just is a bigger iPhone with softening sales and the Watch which is a
tiny emasculated iPhone.

The new Mac laptop is pretty much just silly with a gimmick (although
someone might find a way to make the gimmick actually useful). Apple
reported it sold well, but IMHO that's mainly because it was a long,
long while since the last update.

Apple should have been in cars and homes with Siri long ago. The Apple
TV that Jobs said he solved should have been out long ago.

Apple has superior products but they are all long in the tooth. What
Apple no longer has is a singular driving vision to innovate and
renovate. Cook doesn't have it; Ive doesn't have it; Cue doesn't have
it; Federighi doesn't have it, etc., etc. As much as I was a denier
that Jobs was an actual leader or innovator- I never thought he was
anything more than an opportunist taking credit for the innovations of
others- clearly I was wrong because Apple basically hasn't done anything
new in five years with its current leadership. Well, they've built a
fancy new office building.
nospam
2017-01-06 00:00:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by android
They, Apple is going lose signifiant an amount of market cred if they
don't show anything new and committing soon...
blame intel. intel's repeated delays is yet another reason why there
will be arm macs. apple is not thrilled with that.
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's failure
to produce anything new since Jobs died. Other companies have updated
their product regardless of Intel. Apple is in a holding pattern
milking the iPhone as long as they can and they appear to have nothing-
nothing at all- in the tank.
bullshit right back. intel has had numerous delays on various chips.
Post by Tim McNamara
They've got the iPhone of which sales are OK (would be great for most
other companies but only so-so for Apple),
still quite good.
Post by Tim McNamara
the iPad which pretty much
just is a bigger iPhone with softening sales
the tablet market as a whole is softening, with the ipad outselling the
pack. this is partly due to larger phones. if you have a 6" phone,
there's not much to also have an 8" tablet.
Post by Tim McNamara
and the Watch which is a
tiny emasculated iPhone.
nonsense, and it's outselling android wear watches by quite a bit.
Post by Tim McNamara
The new Mac laptop is pretty much just silly with a gimmick (although
someone might find a way to make the gimmick actually useful). Apple
reported it sold well, but IMHO that's mainly because it was a long,
long while since the last update.
it's much more than a silly gimmick.
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple should have been in cars and homes with Siri long ago. The Apple
TV that Jobs said he solved should have been out long ago.
no it shouldn't have. making a tv set (screen+tuner) is stupid.
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple has superior products but they are all long in the tooth. What
Apple no longer has is a singular driving vision to innovate and
renovate. Cook doesn't have it; Ive doesn't have it; Cue doesn't have
it; Federighi doesn't have it, etc., etc. As much as I was a denier
that Jobs was an actual leader or innovator- I never thought he was
anything more than an opportunist taking credit for the innovations of
others- clearly I was wrong because Apple basically hasn't done anything
new in five years with its current leadership. Well, they've built a
fancy new office building.
more nonsense.
Tim McNamara
2017-01-07 05:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by android
They, Apple is going lose signifiant an amount of market cred if
they don't show anything new and committing soon...
blame intel. intel's repeated delays is yet another reason why
there will be arm macs. apple is not thrilled with that.
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's
failure to produce anything new since Jobs died. Other companies
have updated their product regardless of Intel. Apple is in a
holding pattern milking the iPhone as long as they can and they
appear to have nothing- nothing at all- in the tank.
bullshit right back. intel has had numerous delays on various chips.
And yet other companies have managed to update and refresh their
products.
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
They've got the iPhone of which sales are OK (would be great for most
other companies but only so-so for Apple),
still quite good.
Not, apparently, good enough given that Apple just docked Cook's pay for
poor sales perforance (of course, that's relative since most companies
would commit murder to sell as many phones as Apple does).
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
the iPad which pretty much just is a bigger iPhone with softening
sales
the tablet market as a whole is softening, with the ipad outselling
the pack. this is partly due to larger phones. if you have a 6" phone,
there's not much to also have an 8" tablet.
So we agree. iPad sales have softened- a lot. Oddly enough I bought
the 13" iPad last year because it is what the iPad should have been to
begin with. So now I have two iPads, an iPhone, three Mac laptops...
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
and the Watch which is a tiny emasculated iPhone.
nonsense, and it's outselling android wear watches by quite a bit.
So? It is still just a tiny emasculated iPhone. There's nothing
fundamentally new to it.
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
The new Mac laptop is pretty much just silly with a gimmick (although
someone might find a way to make the gimmick actually useful). Apple
reported it sold well, but IMHO that's mainly because it was a long,
long while since the last update.
it's much more than a silly gimmick.
Not yet.
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple should have been in cars and homes with Siri long ago. The
Apple TV that Jobs said he solved should have been out long ago.
no it shouldn't have. making a tv set (screen+tuner) is stupid.
And yet Jobs wanted to go there very much. Roku has done well with
them- excellent TVs in their own right with Roku built in as well, for
very competitive prices. To a great extent Roku is what the Apple TV
should have been.
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple has superior products but they are all long in the tooth. What
Apple no longer has is a singular driving vision to innovate and
renovate. Cook doesn't have it; Ive doesn't have it; Cue doesn't
have it; Federighi doesn't have it, etc., etc. As much as I was a
denier that Jobs was an actual leader or innovator- I never thought
he was anything more than an opportunist taking credit for the
innovations of others- clearly I was wrong because Apple basically
hasn't done anything new in five years with its current leadership.
Well, they've built a fancy new office building.
more nonsense.
And yet what is the new great Apple product that is setting the world on
fire? They don't have one. The iPhone is their most successful product
(and IMHO is head and shoulders above the competition in terms of
usability). Most everything else in the product line is aging rapidly
and showing it. Dropping the headphone jack is not an innovation,
althouch customers having to replace wireless earbuds regularly will
help the bottom line...
nospam
2017-01-07 20:01:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by android
They, Apple is going lose signifiant an amount of market cred if
they don't show anything new and committing soon...
blame intel. intel's repeated delays is yet another reason why
there will be arm macs. apple is not thrilled with that.
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's
failure to produce anything new since Jobs died. Other companies
have updated their product regardless of Intel. Apple is in a
holding pattern milking the iPhone as long as they can and they
appear to have nothing- nothing at all- in the tank.
bullshit right back. intel has had numerous delays on various chips.
And yet other companies have managed to update and refresh their
products.
not with any significant improvements.

releasing something just for the sake of releasing something is silly.

had apple released a new mac that was essentialy just a slightly
faster cpu, people would bitch that apple isn't innovating.

when apple doesn't release something because there's no point in a
minor speed bump, people bitch that apple isn't innovating.

people just like to bitch.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
They've got the iPhone of which sales are OK (would be great for most
other companies but only so-so for Apple),
still quite good.
Not, apparently, good enough given that Apple just docked Cook's pay for
poor sales perforance (of course, that's relative since most companies
would commit murder to sell as many phones as Apple does).
they didn't dock his pay.

his pay is dependent on performance, as it should be.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
the iPad which pretty much just is a bigger iPhone with softening
sales
the tablet market as a whole is softening, with the ipad outselling
the pack. this is partly due to larger phones. if you have a 6" phone,
there's not much to also have an 8" tablet.
So we agree. iPad sales have softened- a lot. Oddly enough I bought
the 13" iPad last year because it is what the iPad should have been to
begin with. So now I have two iPads, an iPhone, three Mac laptops...
sales of *all* tablets have softened. not just ipads.

you can't single out only ipad sales and claim apple is fucking up.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
and the Watch which is a tiny emasculated iPhone.
nonsense, and it's outselling android wear watches by quite a bit.
So? It is still just a tiny emasculated iPhone. There's nothing
fundamentally new to it.
you clearly have no idea about the apple watch.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
The new Mac laptop is pretty much just silly with a gimmick (although
someone might find a way to make the gimmick actually useful). Apple
reported it sold well, but IMHO that's mainly because it was a long,
long while since the last update.
it's much more than a silly gimmick.
Not yet.
yes yet.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple should have been in cars and homes with Siri long ago. The
Apple TV that Jobs said he solved should have been out long ago.
no it shouldn't have. making a tv set (screen+tuner) is stupid.
And yet Jobs wanted to go there very much. Roku has done well with
them- excellent TVs in their own right with Roku built in as well, for
very competitive prices. To a great extent Roku is what the Apple TV
should have been.
there is *no* evidence that jobs wanted to make an actual tv.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple has superior products but they are all long in the tooth. What
Apple no longer has is a singular driving vision to innovate and
renovate. Cook doesn't have it; Ive doesn't have it; Cue doesn't
have it; Federighi doesn't have it, etc., etc. As much as I was a
denier that Jobs was an actual leader or innovator- I never thought
he was anything more than an opportunist taking credit for the
innovations of others- clearly I was wrong because Apple basically
hasn't done anything new in five years with its current leadership.
Well, they've built a fancy new office building.
more nonsense.
And yet what is the new great Apple product that is setting the world on
fire? They don't have one. The iPhone is their most successful product
(and IMHO is head and shoulders above the competition in terms of
usability). Most everything else in the product line is aging rapidly
and showing it.
apple doesn't have to have a new product every year.
Post by Tim McNamara
Dropping the headphone jack is not an innovation,
althouch customers having to replace wireless earbuds regularly will
help the bottom line...
the iphone 7 has a headphone jack, it's just digital, not analog.

as for dropping the analog headphone jack, apple was not the first and
it has absolutely nothing with increasing the bottom line. the entire
industry is moving to digital interfaces because they're far more
capable than analog equivalents.
JF Mezei
2017-01-08 03:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
And yet other companies have managed to update and refresh their
products.
not with any significant improvements.
releasing something just for the sake of releasing something is silly.
had apple released a new mac that was essentialy just a slightly
faster cpu, people would bitch that apple isn't innovating.
I was "forced" to buy a MacPro last June. Couldn't wait for new one to
come out. Wasn't very happy about buying such an old model. Had Apple
done refresh and called it the 2016 model, I would have felt far more
comfortable even if the specs were not very different from 2013.

Since Apple places a lot of value on image and marketing, having older
products does not help.

In fairness, I think the whole industruy is slowing and maturing. My
2009 Laptop and Xserve are still plenty 8 years later. A 2001 computer
would be inadequate in 2009.


I suspect Apple has a problem with product refreshes since it doesn't
involve large marketing efforts and a video voiced by Jony Ive who
verbally fondles the new thinner design with sexually arousing aluminium
texture and shape.

And that brings new problem: when a product become mature, as PC and now
phones have become, it becomes harder to innovate, so Apple is now down
to removing ports and calling it "courageous" innovation since there is
not much else to do.

But during those 5 years where Apple has been accused of not innovating,
they have done plenty under the hood. per-file encryption on iPhone, the
secure enclave and ApplePay are way ahead of Android's hodge podge
payments in terms of security.

Google's new equivalent to iMessage/Facetime isn't encrypted by default.
Apple's is.

After Apple dropped "Computers" from its name, it created the
expectation of a more diversified company. Right now, Apple could rename
itself "Apple phones and computers Inc".

So the big unasnwered question is whether Apple will break out of phones
and computers and do other consumer electronics. If it wants to do TV,
it will need to improve its Apple TV UI, and get folks like Amazon to
put their video apps on it. (Amazon just launched in Canada where Apple
TV is doing well and supported by Netflix and the local CraveTV, but not
Amazon).

Will Apple get into the home automation market with some form of
all-in-1 router, wi-fi, and home automation and Siri gizmo ? They've
laid the foundation for that with various components, so perhaps it is
time to bring it all together ?

Apple and others have "car hobbies". While the entertainment portion of
the car is "consumer" and within Apple's realm, I doubt Apple could
succeed in the actual car. If they write the software, it can be
profitable, but the software will be installed in Ford, Chrysler GM etc,
it won't be in an iCar.

Should Jony Ive be given budget to design a car, the thin, brushed
aluminium design is more likelyt to be manufactured by someone else and
distributed by them (with the Apple logo on car). For one thing, putting
an iCar in Apple stores would take up a lot of room. Works for Tesla
because that is all they sell. MOre importantly, a thin sports car
designed by Jony Ive would not be affordable and be sold as a loxury
good. Look at how well the gold Apple watch sold.
nospam
2017-01-08 03:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
So the big unasnwered question is whether Apple will break out of phones
and computers and do other consumer electronics.
such as bluetooth headphones that are selling like crazy, you mean?
Post by JF Mezei
If it wants to do TV,
it will need to improve its Apple TV UI, and get folks like Amazon to
put their video apps on it. (Amazon just launched in Canada where Apple
TV is doing well and supported by Netflix and the local CraveTV, but not
Amazon).
nothing is stopping amazon from putting its apps or content on appletv,
other than amazon sees it as competition and does not want to do that.
it's entirely *amazon's* decision.
Post by JF Mezei
Will Apple get into the home automation market with some form of
all-in-1 router, wi-fi, and home automation and Siri gizmo ? They've
laid the foundation for that with various components, so perhaps it is
time to bring it all together ?
probably. everyone else is.
Lewis
2017-01-08 07:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by JF Mezei
So the big unasnwered question is whether Apple will break out of phones
and computers and do other consumer electronics.
such as bluetooth headphones that are selling like crazy, you mean?
Post by JF Mezei
If it wants to do TV,
it will need to improve its Apple TV UI, and get folks like Amazon to
put their video apps on it. (Amazon just launched in Canada where Apple
TV is doing well and supported by Netflix and the local CraveTV, but not
Amazon).
nothing is stopping amazon from putting its apps or content on appletv,
other than amazon sees it as competition and does not want to do that.
it's entirely *amazon's* decision.
Yep.

And there is nothing at all wrong with the AppleTV UI. We use our
AppleTVs for nearly all our video content; movies, TV, Netflix, HBO,
Dramafever, Plex, Airvideo, DS Video. It. Just. Works. And, it's
"babysitter friendly" as I can hand the remote to anyone and say "this
is how you watch TV" and they can.

Granted, DS Video has a lousy UI, while AirVideo is plain but clear and
Plex is a bit of a mess and also very powerful, but that has nothing to
do with Apple.

As for Amazon, I would watch a lot more Amazon if it were on my AppleTV.
As it is, about the only thing I've watched "legit" is Transparent. I
had such terrible lick streaming Grand Tour tht I ended up downloading
it instead. Their other shows I just haven't made the effort to watch
since they require my using a phone or iPad to stream to my TV. Not
worth it, there's tons of other stuff to watch.
--
Love is like oxygen / You get too much / you get too high / Not enough
and you're gonna die
JF Mezei
2017-01-08 18:51:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
nothing is stopping amazon from putting its apps or content on appletv,
other than amazon sees it as competition and does not want to do that.
it's entirely *amazon's* decision.
While the above may be true, you need to consider that Apple wants a
percentage of subscription revenues. While it has lowered this last
year, it is still there and that meanns Amazon giving a competitor a
percentage of its revenues.

I am guessing that should AppleTV reach critical mass of owners, folks
like Amazon would rethink their position and agree to forego the % to
get that many additional customers.
Lewis
2017-01-08 20:06:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
nothing is stopping amazon from putting its apps or content on appletv,
other than amazon sees it as competition and does not want to do that.
it's entirely *amazon's* decision.
While the above may be true, you need to consider that Apple wants a
percentage of subscription revenues. While it has lowered this last
year, it is still there and that meanns Amazon giving a competitor a
percentage of its revenues.
This is not true and would not affect Amazon at all in anyway.

The only revenue Apple expects is IF YOU SIGNUP VIA THE APPLE DEVICE.

I pay for Dramafever every year and Apple gets nothing from them because
my subscription is paid outside of Apple.

Amazon are simply being assholes and punishing their own customers
because they stupidly thing the Amazon Fire stick is a realistic
competitor to the Apple TV.
--
Otto: Apes don't read philosophy.
Wanda: Yes, they do Otto, they just don't understand it.
Jolly Roger
2017-01-08 04:29:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
And yet other companies have managed to update and refresh their
products.
not with any significant improvements.
releasing something just for the sake of releasing something is silly.
had apple released a new mac that was essentialy just a slightly
faster cpu, people would bitch that apple isn't innovating.
Yup.
Post by JF Mezei
I was "forced" to buy a MacPro last June. Couldn't wait for new one to
come out. Wasn't very happy about buying such an old model. Had Apple
done refresh and called it the 2016 model, I would have felt far more
comfortable even if the specs were not very different from 2013.
LOL...
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Alan Browne
2017-01-08 15:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
And yet other companies have managed to update and refresh their
products.
not with any significant improvements.
releasing something just for the sake of releasing something is silly.
had apple released a new mac that was essentialy just a slightly
faster cpu, people would bitch that apple isn't innovating.
I was "forced" to buy a MacPro last June. Couldn't wait for new one to
come out. Wasn't very happy about buying such an old model. Had Apple
done refresh and called it the 2016 model, I would have felt far more
comfortable even if the specs were not very different from 2013.
It mystifies me why you bought a graphics production machine when by all
indications you are not into graphics much.
--
"If war is God's way of teaching Americans geography, then
recession is His way of teaching everyone a little economics."
..Raj Patel, The Value of Nothing.
JF Mezei
2017-01-08 19:09:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
It mystifies me why you bought a graphics production machine when by all
indications you are not into graphics much.
Goal was to replace functionality I had with my 2009 MacPro. And the
2013 one was closest to this. (and it required I buy external disk box
with thunderbolt connection for compatibility with the Mac).


Ironically, my old MacPro actually made use of the 2 graphics cards,
since I chose to which card each of the displays was plugged into. Witgh
the 2013 one, you can't choose to which graphics card a display goes and
the Mac has chosen to put all 3 displys onto one graphics card.

Frankly, except for booting, the new MacPro does not feel significantly
faster. Doing encodings still takes time, whether with handbrake or the
Adobe software (Premiere etc).
Tim McNamara
2017-01-08 21:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by android
They, Apple is going lose signifiant an amount of market cred
if they don't show anything new and committing soon...
blame intel. intel's repeated delays is yet another reason why
there will be arm macs. apple is not thrilled with that.
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's
failure to produce anything new since Jobs died. Other companies
have updated their product regardless of Intel. Apple is in a
holding pattern milking the iPhone as long as they can and they
appear to have nothing- nothing at all- in the tank.
bullshit right back. intel has had numerous delays on various chips.
And yet other companies have managed to update and refresh their
products.
not with any significant improvements.
releasing something just for the sake of releasing something is silly.
had apple released a new mac that was essentialy just a slightly
faster cpu, people would bitch that apple isn't innovating.
when apple doesn't release something because there's no point in a
minor speed bump, people bitch that apple isn't innovating.
people just like to bitch.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
They've got the iPhone of which sales are OK (would be great for
most other companies but only so-so for Apple),
still quite good.
Not, apparently, good enough given that Apple just docked Cook's pay
for poor sales perforance (of course, that's relative since most
companies would commit murder to sell as many phones as Apple does).
they didn't dock his pay.
his pay is dependent on performance, as it should be.
His pay is less than it was because Apple's board was dissatisfied.
Tomato, tomahtoe.
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
the iPad which pretty much just is a bigger iPhone with softening
sales
the tablet market as a whole is softening, with the ipad outselling
the pack. this is partly due to larger phones. if you have a 6"
phone, there's not much to also have an 8" tablet.
So we agree. iPad sales have softened- a lot. Oddly enough I bought
the 13" iPad last year because it is what the iPad should have been
to begin with. So now I have two iPads, an iPhone, three Mac
laptops...
sales of *all* tablets have softened. not just ipads.
you can't single out only ipad sales and claim apple is fucking up.
And you shouldn't try to read people's minds. LOL!
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
and the Watch which is a tiny emasculated iPhone.
nonsense, and it's outselling android wear watches by quite a bit.
So? It is still just a tiny emasculated iPhone. There's nothing
fundamentally new to it.
you clearly have no idea about the apple watch.
Well, let me acknowledge that it's a tiny emasculated extension of your
iPhone. And that it may amount to something someday. But like all
smartwatches thus far, it's a solution in search of a problem.
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
The new Mac laptop is pretty much just silly with a gimmick
(although someone might find a way to make the gimmick actually
useful). Apple reported it sold well, but IMHO that's mainly
because it was a long, long while since the last update.
it's much more than a silly gimmick.
Not yet.
yes yet.
And do you actually have some ind of cogent information to offer? Or is
your answer just "is too!"?
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple should have been in cars and homes with Siri long ago. The
Apple TV that Jobs said he solved should have been out long ago.
no it shouldn't have. making a tv set (screen+tuner) is stupid.
And yet Jobs wanted to go there very much. Roku has done well with
them- excellent TVs in their own right with Roku built in as well,
for very competitive prices. To a great extent Roku is what the
Apple TV should have been.
there is *no* evidence that jobs wanted to make an actual tv.
Other than his statements in interviews that he was working on it, had
cracked the interface issue, that it was going to be a great product?
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple has superior products but they are all long in the tooth.
What Apple no longer has is a singular driving vision to innovate
and renovate. Cook doesn't have it; Ive doesn't have it; Cue
doesn't have it; Federighi doesn't have it, etc., etc. As much as
I was a denier that Jobs was an actual leader or innovator- I
never thought he was anything more than an opportunist taking
credit for the innovations of others- clearly I was wrong because
Apple basically hasn't done anything new in five years with its
current leadership. Well, they've built a fancy new office
building.
more nonsense.
And yet what is the new great Apple product that is setting the world
on fire? They don't have one. The iPhone is their most successful
product (and IMHO is head and shoulders above the competition in
terms of usability). Most everything else in the product line is
aging rapidly and showing it.
apple doesn't have to have a new product every year.
True. But it's been nearly 10 years since they hada knock-your-socks
off new product. That's a long ass time in the tech world. Sort of
like dog years.
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Dropping the headphone jack is not an innovation, althouch customers
having to replace wireless earbuds regularly will help the bottom
line...
the iphone 7 has a headphone jack, it's just digital, not analog.
LOL! Nice wiggle but it don't fly.
Post by nospam
as for dropping the analog headphone jack, apple was not the first and
it has absolutely nothing with increasing the bottom line. the entire
industry is moving to digital interfaces because they're far more
capable than analog equivalents.
And yet thus far the customers are not jumping up and and down in glee
about this, nor about losing USB, Thunderbolt, SD, etc., ports on their
Macs. There is some bottom line for Apple in this- not including that
technology saves some cash on the supply side (I doubt that the iPhone
headphone jack omission saved Apple any money, however, and may have
lost them some money- so I think you are probably right on that specific
issue).
nospam
2017-01-08 23:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
They've got the iPhone of which sales are OK (would be great for
most other companies but only so-so for Apple),
still quite good.
Not, apparently, good enough given that Apple just docked Cook's pay
for poor sales perforance (of course, that's relative since most
companies would commit murder to sell as many phones as Apple does).
they didn't dock his pay.
his pay is dependent on performance, as it should be.
His pay is less than it was because Apple's board was dissatisfied.
Tomato, tomahtoe.
his pay was not docked.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
the iPad which pretty much just is a bigger iPhone with softening
sales
the tablet market as a whole is softening, with the ipad outselling
the pack. this is partly due to larger phones. if you have a 6"
phone, there's not much to also have an 8" tablet.
So we agree. iPad sales have softened- a lot. Oddly enough I bought
the 13" iPad last year because it is what the iPad should have been
to begin with. So now I have two iPads, an iPhone, three Mac
laptops...
sales of *all* tablets have softened. not just ipads.
you can't single out only ipad sales and claim apple is fucking up.
And you shouldn't try to read people's minds. LOL!
looks like i was right.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
and the Watch which is a tiny emasculated iPhone.
nonsense, and it's outselling android wear watches by quite a bit.
So? It is still just a tiny emasculated iPhone. There's nothing
fundamentally new to it.
you clearly have no idea about the apple watch.
Well, let me acknowledge that it's a tiny emasculated extension of your
iPhone. And that it may amount to something someday. But like all
smartwatches thus far, it's a solution in search of a problem.
by your thinking, an iphone is a tiny emasculated extension of a mac.

after all, it runs a slimmed down version of os x.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple TV that Jobs said he solved should have been out long ago.
no it shouldn't have. making a tv set (screen+tuner) is stupid.
And yet Jobs wanted to go there very much. Roku has done well with
them- excellent TVs in their own right with Roku built in as well,
for very competitive prices. To a great extent Roku is what the
Apple TV should have been.
there is *no* evidence that jobs wanted to make an actual tv.
Other than his statements in interviews that he was working on it, had
cracked the interface issue, that it was going to be a great product?
that does not mean apple was going to make an actual tv, which would be
incredibly stupid and why you haven't seen them do it.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple has superior products but they are all long in the tooth.
What Apple no longer has is a singular driving vision to innovate
and renovate. Cook doesn't have it; Ive doesn't have it; Cue
doesn't have it; Federighi doesn't have it, etc., etc. As much as
I was a denier that Jobs was an actual leader or innovator- I
never thought he was anything more than an opportunist taking
credit for the innovations of others- clearly I was wrong because
Apple basically hasn't done anything new in five years with its
current leadership. Well, they've built a fancy new office
building.
more nonsense.
And yet what is the new great Apple product that is setting the world
on fire? They don't have one. The iPhone is their most successful
product (and IMHO is head and shoulders above the competition in
terms of usability). Most everything else in the product line is
aging rapidly and showing it.
apple doesn't have to have a new product every year.
True. But it's been nearly 10 years since they hada knock-your-socks
off new product. That's a long ass time in the tech world. Sort of
like dog years.
more like 2 years for the watch, which has sold more than the amazon
echo, widely considered to be 'very successful'.

or even just a month ago for the airpods, which most reviewers are
saying it's apple doing what it does best.

and you're ignoring the ipad 7 years ago, which was the hottest selling
consumer product at the time.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Dropping the headphone jack is not an innovation, althouch customers
having to replace wireless earbuds regularly will help the bottom
line...
the iphone 7 has a headphone jack, it's just digital, not analog.
LOL! Nice wiggle but it don't fly.
not a wiggle at all.

the iphone 7 has a headphone jack, which is where the headphones in the
box plug into. that jack does quite a bit more too, but one of its many
functions is a headphone jack.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
as for dropping the analog headphone jack, apple was not the first and
it has absolutely nothing with increasing the bottom line. the entire
industry is moving to digital interfaces because they're far more
capable than analog equivalents.
And yet thus far the customers are not jumping up and and down in glee
about this,
why would anyone jump up and down about what type of headphone jack
something has? nobody cares. they ise the headphones that came in the
box, which plug right into the jack on the bottom of the phone and
they're happy.

you're making up a problem when none exists, just to bash apple when
every other company will be replacing the same 100 year old analog jack
with a digital version.

several companies already have done so, including the moto z which came
out last spring, several months before the iphone 7. the samsung galaxy
s8, expected in a few months, won't have an analog headphone jack
either.

the first android phone in 2008, the t-mobile g1/htc dream, didn't have
an analog headphone jack.

the entire industry is moving to digital headphone jacks.
Post by Tim McNamara
nor about losing USB, Thunderbolt, SD, etc., ports on their
Macs.
wtf are you talking about??

macs still have usb and thunderbolt ports. they were not removed.

the sd card slot is gone from the current macbooks but they were also
rarely used so not many people care, other than photographers, some of
whom have cameras that take something *other* than sd cards.
Post by Tim McNamara
There is some bottom line for Apple in this- not including that
technology saves some cash on the supply side (I doubt that the iPhone
headphone jack omission saved Apple any money, however, and may have
lost them some money- so I think you are probably right on that specific
issue).
every company is concerned about the bottom line.
JF Mezei
2017-01-09 02:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
his pay was not docked.
Technically correct, functionally, his pay was docked because he didn't
get a bonus, so his income tax return will show lower revenue this year
than last.
Post by nospam
by your thinking, an iphone is a tiny emasculated extension of a mac.
after all, it runs a slimmed down version of os x.
How much commonality would there remain between WatchOS and MacOS?

At the low level, they have different CPU architecture, and likely
different process scheduling due to the greater need to save power.

I can see a few frameworks at higher levels being common code (iMessage,
ApplePay) stuff for instance). How at the end of the day, haven't IOS
and now WatchOS moved sufficiently that there is not much common code
anymore ? (I am asking a question, not making a statement).
Post by nospam
that does not mean apple was going to make an actual tv, which would be
incredibly stupid and why you haven't seen them do it.
I wouldn't be surprised if towards the end of Jobs, early Cook, the
attempt was made to make/sell actual TVs. This may explain why AppleTV
remained stagnant until version 4 which signaled that Apple had focused
on the set top box, and not the TV set and that the future was in those
boxes.
Post by nospam
more like 2 years for the watch, which has sold more than the amazon
echo, widely considered to be 'very successful'.
The watch is nothing more than a hobby to see if it works and where it
works. It is not a game changer, and nobody considers it a wild success.
Post by nospam
or even just a month ago for the airpods, which most reviewers are
saying it's apple doing what it does best.
Bluetooth earphones are not a new invention. And I suspect the delay
was due to underwhelming autonomy which got improved just enough to be
palatable.

It may have been a great feat to pack so much in so little space. But at
the end of the day, it is just another pair of bluetooth earphones.
Post by nospam
the iphone 7 has a headphone jack, which is where the headphones in the
box plug into. that jack does quite a bit more too, but one of its many
functions is a headphone jack.
It's not a headphone jack. headphones now plug into the lightning port.
These "digital" headphones are now useless in airplanes and everywhere
else that supports the small sony plug. Also makes a whole slew of other
gizmos that used the jack useless.
Post by nospam
why would anyone jump up and down about what type of headphone jack
something has? nobody cares.
The number of people who have an iPhoen with non-Apple heaphones is not
trivial. Apple is out to force people to use proprietary headphones and
this may or may not backfire. The jury is still out on this.

Had the 7 sales been amazing, I don't think Cook would have seen his
bonus cut. And from what I read, it is the 5/SE that is driving sales
now because the 7 is way too expensive. (This is a problem for Wall
Street Casino Analysts who measure Apple in part by averagte sale price
for an Iphone, and a higher mix of low end phones being sold means lower
ASP.
Post by nospam
the entire industry is moving to digital headphone jacks.
Remember when Jobs declared Flash to be dead and not needed on iPhone ?
While use of Flash has diminished, it is still around and still very
much present.
Post by nospam
macs still have usb and thunderbolt ports. they were not removed.
New Macbooks have USB ports, and you need adaptors for Thunderbolt,
DisplyPort etc.
Post by nospam
the sd card slot is gone from the current macbooks but they were also
rarely used so not many people care, other than photographers,
The SD slot and other ports were in the MacBook **PRO** Because the
**PRO** model was the one for professionsla that need those. Apple has
downgraded the Pro to a mere consumer product.
nospam
2017-01-09 03:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
that does not mean apple was going to make an actual tv, which would be
incredibly stupid and why you haven't seen them do it.
I wouldn't be surprised if towards the end of Jobs, early Cook, the
attempt was made to make/sell actual TVs. This may explain why AppleTV
remained stagnant until version 4 which signaled that Apple had focused
on the set top box, and not the TV set and that the future was in those
boxes.
a set top box makes sense. that's why apple, roku, amazon and google
all make one in one form or another.

a tv display+tuner, what most people think of when they hear the word
'tv set', does not.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
more like 2 years for the watch, which has sold more than the amazon
echo, widely considered to be 'very successful'.
The watch is nothing more than a hobby to see if it works and where it
works. It is not a game changer, and nobody considers it a wild success.
the amazon echo is considered to be a huge success and the apple watch
is outselling that and in a lot more countries too.

how is it that a product which is outselling one that's considered to
be successful be considered a failure?
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
or even just a month ago for the airpods, which most reviewers are
saying it's apple doing what it does best.
Bluetooth earphones are not a new invention. And I suspect the delay
was due to underwhelming autonomy which got improved just enough to be
palatable.
what delay? that they were supposed to ship in october and ended up
shipping in december? a two month delay is not a big deal. supposedly
there were some manufacturing issues. sometimes that happens.

remember the white iphone 4? that was delayed for nearly a year.

a few years ago, the imac had some shipping delays at product launch
too.
Post by JF Mezei
It may have been a great feat to pack so much in so little space. But at
the end of the day, it is just another pair of bluetooth earphones.
just like the iphone is just another cellphone.

airpods are much more than generic bluetooth headsets. the simplicity
of pairing alone is worlds ahead of anything else, along with very good
battery life.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
the iphone 7 has a headphone jack, which is where the headphones in the
box plug into. that jack does quite a bit more too, but one of its many
functions is a headphone jack.
It's not a headphone jack.
yes it is. the bundled headphones plug into it. just because it can do
other stuff doesn't mean it's not also a headphone jack.
Post by JF Mezei
headphones now plug into the lightning port.
These "digital" headphones are now useless in airplanes and everywhere
else that supports the small sony plug. Also makes a whole slew of other
gizmos that used the jack useless.
that problem will eventually resolve itself when the airplanes and
other products switch to digital headphone jacks.

as i said, the samsung galaxy 8 is expected to have a digital headphone
jack. several other android phones already do.

the industry moving to digital headphone jacks.

the only downside is that there will be usb-c and lightning headphones.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
why would anyone jump up and down about what type of headphone jack
something has? nobody cares.
The number of people who have an iPhoen with non-Apple heaphones is not
trivial. Apple is out to force people to use proprietary headphones and
this may or may not backfire. The jury is still out on this.
apple knows how many people
- use the included headphones
- use a bluetooth headset
- don't use any headphones at all
- use headphones they already have

you do not.

only the last group is affected, and there's an adapter in the box so
they can still use their existing headphones. it's a non-issue.
Post by JF Mezei
Had the 7 sales been amazing, I don't think Cook would have seen his
bonus cut. And from what I read, it is the 5/SE that is driving sales
now because the 7 is way too expensive. (This is a problem for Wall
Street Casino Analysts who measure Apple in part by averagte sale price
for an Iphone, and a higher mix of low end phones being sold means lower
ASP.
you have no idea what the iphone 7 sales are.

nobody outside of apple does because apple hasn't announced it yet.

lots of analysts are guessing, but as history has shown, they generally
get it wrong.

apple's next earnings call is january 31 and at *that* point, people
will know exactly how well the iphone 7 has sold.

according to flurry for the week of 12/19-12/25/16, iphones are doing
rather well:
<http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2016/12/deviceactivationsholidayfl
urry-800x601.jpg>
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
the entire industry is moving to digital headphone jacks.
Remember when Jobs declared Flash to be dead and not needed on iPhone ?
While use of Flash has diminished, it is still around and still very
much present.
no it isn't.

there may still be a few sites that haven't realized it yet, but that
doesn't mean it's not dead. it doesn't have to be zero to be considered
dead. nobody is creating new content with flash. flash is dead.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
macs still have usb and thunderbolt ports. they were not removed.
New Macbooks have USB ports, and you need adaptors for Thunderbolt,
no you don't. thunderbolt 3 plugs in directly, no adapter required.
Post by JF Mezei
DisplyPort etc.
big deal. you also need an adapter for vga.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
the sd card slot is gone from the current macbooks but they were also
rarely used so not many people care, other than photographers,
The SD slot and other ports were in the MacBook **PRO** Because the
**PRO** model was the one for professionsla that need those.
lots of pros don't use sd cards.

worst case, they spend $20 on a card reader. big fucking deal.
Post by JF Mezei
Apple has
downgraded the Pro to a mere consumer product.
nonsense.
JF Mezei
2017-01-09 04:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
that problem will eventually resolve itself when the airplanes and
other products switch to digital headphone jacks.
as i said, the samsung galaxy 8 is expected to have a digital headphone
jack. several other android phones already do.
Do you seriously think that Samsung and others will adopt Lightning port
and pay Apple wahetever royalties for the port and the digital sound
standard ?

We'll see how this plays out, and if the non-Apple ecosystem develops a
standard for headphones, and if so, whether Apple might follow.
Post by nospam
you have no idea what the iphone 7 sales are.
nobody outside of apple does because apple hasn't announced it yet.
1- Generally, when a company doesn't brag about sales successes, it is
because sales are not impressive.

2- Cook not getting a bonus could very well be because the 7 sales are
be;low expectations, as well as the 6s. Had 6s been bad but 7 looking
really great, the board could have still given Cook a bonus for yet
undisclosed sales numbers.


Logically, you are right. I don't know. But same logic applies to you as
well, you don't know. What we do know is that Apple has not bragged
about 7 sales. In fact, Apple makes a point of no loger separating
different models sales, so when it says sales going great, it could be
that the 5/SE is the one selling like hotcakes, and the 7 is only used
as a replacement for faulty 6.

The thing is that Apple knows very well.
Post by nospam
apple's next earnings call is january 31 and at *that* point, people
will know exactly how well the iphone 7 has sold.
Nop because Apple doesn't publicly disclose the breakdown of models.
Post by nospam
there may still be a few sites that haven't realized it yet, but that
doesn't mean it's not dead. it doesn't have to be zero to be considered
dead. nobody is creating new content with flash. flash is dead.
This morning, I discovered an Atari Asteroids game. Couple weeks ago, it
was Mario Bros. (original version). All on Flash.

http://my.ign.com/atari/asteroids
(you're obviously way tooo young to remember that game).


And with Adobe's upgrade always failing for me, Firefox does a "popp up"
equivaloent to authorisze or block the launching of flash on a specific
site. And I can tell you flash is still omnipresent (although I only
activate it when it is something i want).

Yep, major users like Youtube have moved off Flash and this is good. But
Flash isn't dead yet. If you live on IOS, then obviously, you think it's
dead.
Post by nospam
no you don't. thunderbolt 3 plugs in directly, no adapter required.
But not normal thunderbolt.
Post by nospam
worst case, they spend $20 on a card reader. big fucking deal.
The problem is one of convenience. Your laptop ceases to be a portable
device when it is loaded left and right with adaptors and clumsy wiring.
Lewis
2017-01-09 12:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
that problem will eventually resolve itself when the airplanes and
other products switch to digital headphone jacks.
as i said, the samsung galaxy 8 is expected to have a digital headphone
jack. several other android phones already do.
Do you seriously think that Samsung and others will adopt Lightning port
and pay Apple wahetever royalties for the port and the digital sound
standard ?
Please learn to read, you ignornat fool.

There are ALREADY plenty of andrid phones without an analog headphone
jack.

And you know who really put analog jacks on phones? Apple. None of my
phones before the iPhone had an analog headphone jack. Not one.

My Motorola RAZR had a mini USB. The phone before that had a custom Sony
Ericsson plug.
Post by JF Mezei
1- Generally, when a company doesn't brag about sales successes, it is
because sales are not impressive.
No, when a company has a quarterly results call in a couple of weeks
there is no reason to talk about anything.
Post by JF Mezei
2- Cook not getting a bonus could very well be because the 7 sales are
be;low expectations,
No it could not, since the Bonus is based on FY2016.
Post by JF Mezei
as well as the 6s. Had 6s been bad but 7 looking really great, the
board could have still given Cook a bonus for yet undisclosed sales
numbers.
You are, once again, making shit up. This is not at all true. The bonus
is based on INCREASING sales. The 6S was extremely successful, but the 6
skewed the charts.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
apple's next earnings call is january 31 and at *that* point, people
will know exactly how well the iphone 7 has sold.
Nop because Apple doesn't publicly disclose the breakdown of models.
They don't have to. ASP and unit sales do it for you.
Post by JF Mezei
This morning, I discovered an Atari Asteroids game. Couple weeks ago, it
was Mario Bros. (original version). All on Flash.
Ah, tehre we go 20+ year old games are your proof Flash lives?

Moron.

Flash is so dead Adobe admits it is dead and is no longer developing it.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
no you don't. thunderbolt 3 plugs in directly, no adapter required.
But not normal thunderbolt.
"normal" Thunderbolt? No.

I suppose you were whining about how FW800 was lousy because it required
a new plug? God you're dumb.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
worst case, they spend $20 on a card reader. big fucking deal.
The problem is one of convenience. Your laptop ceases to be a portable
device when it is loaded left and right with adaptors and clumsy wiring.
A card reader can go either on the left or the right. I don't see a need
to put one on both sides. And it doesn't require a wire at all.
--
"Love is like war: easy to begin but very hard to stop." - H. L. Mencken
nospam
2017-01-09 14:23:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
that problem will eventually resolve itself when the airplanes and
other products switch to digital headphone jacks.
as i said, the samsung galaxy 8 is expected to have a digital headphone
jack. several other android phones already do.
Do you seriously think that Samsung and others will adopt Lightning port
and pay Apple wahetever royalties for the port and the digital sound
standard ?
Please learn to read, you ignornat fool.
There are ALREADY plenty of andrid phones without an analog headphone
jack.
yep, and with more on the way. once samsung does it, it will be pretty
much the standard.
Post by Lewis
And you know who really put analog jacks on phones? Apple.
yep.
Post by Lewis
None of my
phones before the iPhone had an analog headphone jack. Not one.
several of mine did, but it was a 2.5mm jack, not the usual 3.5mm jack,
which meant either special headphones or an adapter.
Jolly Roger
2017-01-09 16:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Lewis
And you know who really put analog jacks on phones? Apple.
yep.
Post by Lewis
None of my phones before the iPhone had an analog headphone jack. Not
one.
several of mine did, but it was a 2.5mm jack, not the usual 3.5mm
jack, which meant either special headphones or an adapter.
Yep, same here.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Lewis
2017-01-09 20:32:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by nospam
Post by Lewis
And you know who really put analog jacks on phones? Apple.
yep.
Post by Lewis
None of my phones before the iPhone had an analog headphone jack. Not
one.
several of mine did, but it was a 2.5mm jack, not the usual 3.5mm
jack, which meant either special headphones or an adapter.
Yep, same here.
I remember those, but never had one. A friend did break off the 2.5mm
plug in a phone. I assume they were pretty fragile?
--
'It's easy to hold everything in common when no one's got anything.'
nospam
2017-01-09 21:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by nospam
Post by Lewis
None of my phones before the iPhone had an analog headphone jack. Not
one.
several of mine did, but it was a 2.5mm jack, not the usual 3.5mm
jack, which meant either special headphones or an adapter.
Yep, same here.
I remember those, but never had one. A friend did break off the 2.5mm
plug in a phone. I assume they were pretty fragile?
maybe a bit more because they were thinner, but they never seemed
particularly fragile. however, enough torque and anything will snap.
nospam
2017-01-09 14:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
that problem will eventually resolve itself when the airplanes and
other products switch to digital headphone jacks.
as i said, the samsung galaxy 8 is expected to have a digital headphone
jack. several other android phones already do.
Do you seriously think that Samsung and others will adopt Lightning port
and pay Apple wahetever royalties for the port and the digital sound
standard ?
who said anything about samsung adopting lightning?

samsung and other android phones will be using usb-c, as will
desktop/laptop computers.
Post by JF Mezei
We'll see how this plays out, and if the non-Apple ecosystem develops a
standard for headphones, and if so, whether Apple might follow.
apple might support usb-c audio on macs, but ios devices aren't going
to switch to usb-c any time soon, as they *just* switched to lightning.

maybe apple will put a lightning port on macs for headphones. who knows.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
you have no idea what the iphone 7 sales are.
nobody outside of apple does because apple hasn't announced it yet.
1- Generally, when a company doesn't brag about sales successes, it is
because sales are not impressive.
apple never brags about sales. they announce it at earnings calls.
Post by JF Mezei
2- Cook not getting a bonus could very well be because the 7 sales are
be;low expectations, as well as the 6s. Had 6s been bad but 7 looking
really great, the board could have still given Cook a bonus for yet
undisclosed sales numbers.
Logically, you are right. I don't know. But same logic applies to you as
well, you don't know. What we do know is that Apple has not bragged
about 7 sales. In fact, Apple makes a point of no loger separating
different models sales, so when it says sales going great, it could be
that the 5/SE is the one selling like hotcakes, and the 7 is only used
as a replacement for faulty 6.
not likely.

the 7 was backordered for months after the announcement.
Post by JF Mezei
The thing is that Apple knows very well.
apple knows.

everyone else does not, although the less stupid ones have a reasonably
good idea.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
apple's next earnings call is january 31 and at *that* point, people
will know exactly how well the iphone 7 has sold.
Nop because Apple doesn't publicly disclose the breakdown of models.
they don't need to.

most people are buying the 7, not the 6s or se.

analytics companies know model breakdowns.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
there may still be a few sites that haven't realized it yet, but that
doesn't mean it's not dead. it doesn't have to be zero to be considered
dead. nobody is creating new content with flash. flash is dead.
This morning, I discovered an Atari Asteroids game. Couple weeks ago, it
was Mario Bros. (original version). All on Flash.
http://my.ign.com/atari/asteroids
(you're obviously way tooo young to remember that game).
it's always amusing when people make assumptions about someone else's
age.
Post by JF Mezei
And with Adobe's upgrade always failing for me, Firefox does a "popp up"
equivaloent to authorisze or block the launching of flash on a specific
site. And I can tell you flash is still omnipresent (although I only
activate it when it is something i want).
Yep, major users like Youtube have moved off Flash and this is good. But
Flash isn't dead yet. If you live on IOS, then obviously, you think it's
dead.
flash is dead.

again, it doesn't have to be completely zero to be considered dead.
even adobe says it's dead.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
no you don't. thunderbolt 3 plugs in directly, no adapter required.
But not normal thunderbolt.
thunderbolt 3 is normal thunderbolt.

usb 3 needed new cables. are you going to say that usb 3 is not normal
usb?
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
worst case, they spend $20 on a card reader. big fucking deal.
The problem is one of convenience. Your laptop ceases to be a portable
device when it is loaded left and right with adaptors and clumsy wiring.
what wiring? my card reader looks like a usb flash drive. pop card into
card reader, plug into computer, copy photos, unplug. it's slightly
less convenient than an internal slot. it's not like it's being used
24/7.
Lewis
2017-01-09 20:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
apple might support usb-c audio on macs, but ios devices aren't going
to switch to usb-c any time soon, as they *just* switched to lightning.
Well, it's been over four years, so not *just*. But yes, they aren't
going to change any time soon. Although USB-C is a good reason to
change...
Post by nospam
maybe apple will put a lightning port on macs for headphones. who knows.
I doubt they will.
Post by nospam
the 7 was backordered for months after the announcement.
Yep. They are STILL a bit constrained if you want to walk into a store
and get one.
--
Vernon: Now this is the thought that wakes me up in the middle of the
night. That when I get older, these kids are going to take care of me
Carl: I wouldn't count on it.
Jolly Roger
2017-01-09 04:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
his pay was not docked.
Technically correct, functionally, his pay was docked
Not according to the typical definition which is to *deduct* from the
normal amount of pay for work done. Not that it really matters - word
games are just plain boring.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
by your thinking, an iphone is a tiny emasculated extension of a mac.
after all, it runs a slimmed down version of os x.
How much commonality would there remain between WatchOS and MacOS?
Oodles. Both are Darwin-based, to start; and there are lots of Apple
frameworks and libraries on top of that that are common to both devices.
Post by JF Mezei
At the low level, they have different CPU architecture, and likely
different process scheduling due to the greater need to save power.
I can see a few frameworks at higher levels being common code (iMessage,
ApplePay) stuff for instance). How at the end of the day, haven't IOS
and now WatchOS moved sufficiently that there is not much common code
anymore ? (I am asking a question, not making a statement).
Nope. There's plenty. Software developers and anyone who has jail broken
an iOS device and looked around can see for themselves lots of things
are common between macOS, iOS, tvOS, and watchOS.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
that does not mean apple was going to make an actual tv, which would be
incredibly stupid and why you haven't seen them do it.
I wouldn't be surprised if towards the end of Jobs, early Cook, the
attempt was made to make/sell actual TVs.
None of them said anything about Apple intending to sell television
sets.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
or even just a month ago for the airpods, which most reviewers are
saying it's apple doing what it does best.
Bluetooth earphones are not a new invention.
Nobody said that. You're trolling.
Post by JF Mezei
It may have been a great feat to pack so much in so little space. But at
the end of the day, it is just another pair of bluetooth earphones.
...said the troll who hasn't ever used them himself. You are full of
ignorant speculation as usual, Mr. FUDstar.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
the iphone 7 has a headphone jack, which is where the headphones in the
box plug into. that jack does quite a bit more too, but one of its many
functions is a headphone jack.
It's not a headphone jack.
The headphones included in the box plug right into the jack. That makes
it a headphone jack.
Post by JF Mezei
These "digital" compact discs are now useless in cars and everywhere
else that has a cassette tape deck. Also makes a whole slew of other
gizmos that used the cassette tape deck useless.
(FTFY)

Try crying louder. The world clearly hasn't heard you!
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
the entire industry is moving to digital headphone jacks.
Remember when Jobs declared Flash to be dead and not needed on iPhone ?
While use of Flash has diminished, it is still around and still very
much present.
Flash use has declined from 28.5% in 2011 down to just 7.3% today, and
has been all but wiped from the face of mobile web sites. And like
Flash, the writing is on the wall for analog jacks - like it or not. The
world doesn't care about your protests and trolls; it will move on with
you or without you.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
the sd card slot is gone from the current macbooks but they were also
rarely used so not many people care, other than photographers,
The SD slot and other ports were in the MacBook **PRO** Because the
**PRO** model was the one for professionsla that need those. Apple has
downgraded the Pro to a mere consumer product.
Nonsense. It's a solid, fast machine. I have owned numerous models with
an SD slot over the years that *never* saw use. The slot was a complete
waste of space for me. Its sole purpose was to gather dust. I've worked
professionally in both digital graphics and software & hardware
development fields for most of my life. Am I suddenly not a professional
because I have no use for an SD card? Hardly. There are many different
types of professionals, each with their own needs and use cases. And
photographers probably don't make up the majority share of professional
Apple users. Vocal minorities notwithstanding, for many people Apple's
offerings still hold a lot of value.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Lewis
2017-01-09 12:12:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
his pay was not docked.
Technically correct, functionally, his pay was docked because he didn't
get a bonus,
That's not hat "docked" and :bonus" mean.
Post by JF Mezei
At the low level, they have different CPU architecture, and likely
different process scheduling due to the greater need to save power.
Yep, there you go again, making up shit.
--
'Oh, I never play to win.' She smiled. 'But I do play not to lose.'
Lewis
2017-01-09 02:52:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by android
They, Apple is going lose signifiant an amount of market cred
if they don't show anything new and committing soon...
blame intel. intel's repeated delays is yet another reason why
there will be arm macs. apple is not thrilled with that.
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's
failure to produce anything new since Jobs died. Other companies
have updated their product regardless of Intel. Apple is in a
holding pattern milking the iPhone as long as they can and they
appear to have nothing- nothing at all- in the tank.
bullshit right back. intel has had numerous delays on various chips.
And yet other companies have managed to update and refresh their
products.
not with any significant improvements.
releasing something just for the sake of releasing something is silly.
had apple released a new mac that was essentialy just a slightly
faster cpu, people would bitch that apple isn't innovating.
when apple doesn't release something because there's no point in a
minor speed bump, people bitch that apple isn't innovating.
people just like to bitch.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by nospam
Post by Tim McNamara
They've got the iPhone of which sales are OK (would be great for
most other companies but only so-so for Apple),
still quite good.
Not, apparently, good enough given that Apple just docked Cook's pay
for poor sales perforance (of course, that's relative since most
companies would commit murder to sell as many phones as Apple does).
they didn't dock his pay.
his pay is dependent on performance, as it should be.
His pay is less than it was because Apple's board was dissatisfied.
That is what is known as a lie.

There are specific metrics and executive pay is determined on hitting
those metrics. Period. No one outside the whine-osphere is dissatisfied
with Tim Cook or the performance of Apple.
Post by Tim McNamara
But it's been nearly 10 years since they hada knock-your-socks
off new product.
That is also not true. I remember the introduction of the iPad. It
completely bowled over everyone.
Post by Tim McNamara
That's a long ass time in the tech world. Sort of
like dog years.
Let's see, when was the last time <insert tech company of your choice>
had a 'knock you socks off new product"? Oh right, NEVER.
Post by Tim McNamara
And yet thus far the customers are not jumping up and and down in glee
about this,
Really? How much have iPhone sales dropped? Oh right, YOU HAVE NO FUCKING
IDEA, that's how far.
Post by Tim McNamara
nor about losing USB, Thunderbolt,
You are an idiot, I see. NO ONE has lost either Thunderbolt or USB ports.
--
To read makes our speaking English good.
Jolly Roger
2017-01-06 00:22:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by android
They, Apple is going lose signifiant an amount of market cred if
they don't show anything new and committing soon...
blame intel. intel's repeated delays is yet another reason why there
will be arm macs. apple is not thrilled with that.
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's
failure to produce anything new since Jobs died.
That's a laughable and false assertion; Apple's done *plenty* since Jobs
died. Only trolls and revisionists claim otherwise. And for all you know
Apple is doing precisely as Job wanted and outlined before he left.
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple is in a holding pattern milking the iPhone as long as they can
and they appear to have nothing- nothing at all- in the tank.
Only to entitled people who think Apple owes them something new and
shiny every time their ADD medication wears off. The rest of us
understand innovation takes time and focus, and are as a result much
less impatient.
Post by Tim McNamara
They've got the iPhone of which sales are OK (would be great for most
other companies but only so-so for Apple)
You are obviously biased. Every other tech company in the world envies
Apple sales numbers.
Post by Tim McNamara
the iPad which pretty much just is a bigger iPhone with softening
sales
That has nothing to do with the iPad specifically when the entire tablet
market is softening.
Post by Tim McNamara
and the Watch which is a tiny emasculated iPhone.
It's *better* than a phone in many ways.
Post by Tim McNamara
The new Mac laptop is pretty much just silly with a gimmick (although
someone might find a way to make the gimmick actually useful).
It's also got some of the fastest storage available on a laptop. And it
excels in other areas too. You are ignoring all of the good to troll on
the bad; so your opinion isn't worth much.
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple reported it sold well, but IMHO that's mainly because it was a
long, long while since the last update.
You wouldn't know since you don't have access to the data.
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple should have been in cars and homes with Siri long ago. The
Apple TV that Jobs said he solved should have been out long ago.
Like the music industry that came before it, the television/movie
industry doesn't want what Apple wants - they want the status quo or to
rape people's wallets more. Anyone who has watched Apple knows often the
entire world does not bend to Apple's will overnight; and that's not
all Apple's fault.
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple has superior products but they are all long in the tooth.
Not for most people, as far as I can tell. I'm perfectly happy with my
2008 Mac Pro, 2011 MacBook Pro, 2012 Mac mini Server, iPhone SE, and
assorted other older Apple computers and accessories all in use daily.
The same can be said of most of the Apple users I know both
professionally and personally. There are minor gripes as there always
have been, but no overwhelming general complaint about Apple's current
products.
Post by Tim McNamara
What Apple no longer has is a singular driving vision to innovate and
renovate.
You wouldn't know. Apple doesn't make road maps and future plans public.
You're just trolling.
Post by Tim McNamara
Cook doesn't have it; Ive doesn't have it; Cue doesn't have it;
Federighi doesn't have it, etc., etc.
That must be why Steve Jobs himself hand picked them to lead Apple after
he left: because none of them have what it takes. If only Steve had
talked with you!
Post by Tim McNamara
As much as I was a denier that Jobs was an actual leader or innovator
He was a true visionary who propelled Apple to its greatest heights and
changed entire industries for the better; only idiots will argue that.
Post by Tim McNamara
- I never thought he was anything more than an opportunist taking
credit for the innovations of others-
What a nasty thing to say about someone - anyone - you don't even know
personally.
Post by Tim McNamara
clearly I was wrong because Apple basically hasn't done anything new
in five years with its current leadership.i
Liar. Apple's done *lots* in the past few years.
Post by Tim McNamara
Well, they've built a fancy new office building.
Way more than that. Troll on, if it helps you feel better about yourself
though.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Tim McNamara
2017-01-07 05:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by android
They, Apple is going lose signifiant an amount of market cred if
they don't show anything new and committing soon...
blame intel. intel's repeated delays is yet another reason why there
will be arm macs. apple is not thrilled with that.
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's
failure to produce anything new since Jobs died.
That's a laughable and false assertion; Apple's done *plenty* since
Jobs died.
Like what? They've managed an annual update of the iPhone. They made
bigger and smaller iPads. and the Watch. They've dumped some products
either formally or informally (through just no longer updating them).
Post by Jolly Roger
Only trolls and revisionists claim otherwise. And for all you know
Apple is doing precisely as Job wanted and outlined before he left.
Or not. That was simply a useless thing to say, Roger. You should know
better.
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple is in a holding pattern milking the iPhone as long as they can
and they appear to have nothing- nothing at all- in the tank.
Only to entitled people who think Apple owes them something new and
shiny every time their ADD medication wears off. The rest of us
understand innovation takes time and focus, and are as a result much
less impatient.
LOL! I still have an 11 ear old iBook, a 6 year old MBP, a 3 year old
MBA, an iPad 3, an iPhone 5S and a 13" iPad Pro. The good thing about
Apple products is that their service life is much longer than other
makers. However, Apple's foundational attitude was innovation and,
looking at the history, it's clear they only managed that with Jobs. As
much as I thought he was a prick and an egotist with little technical
talent of his own, he also was good at pushing the company forward
especially in the second phase of his time at Apple. Who's doing that
now? Clearly no one.
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
They've got the iPhone of which sales are OK (would be great for most
other companies but only so-so for Apple)
You are obviously biased. Every other tech company in the world envies
Apple sales numbers.
Except Apple's board, apparently, to judge by the news today.
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
the iPad which pretty much just is a bigger iPhone with softening
sales
That has nothing to do with the iPad specifically when the entire
tablet market is softening.
So? Apple had managed to buck the same trend in laptops- another arket
that has softened dramatically over a decade.
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
and the Watch which is a tiny emasculated iPhone.
It's *better* than a phone in many ways.
LOL! Except you can't make much use of it without an iPhone...
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
The new Mac laptop is pretty much just silly with a gimmick (although
someone might find a way to make the gimmick actually useful).
It's also got some of the fastest storage available on a laptop. And
it excels in other areas too. You are ignoring all of the good to
troll on the bad; so your opinion isn't worth much.
The "good" is in tiny increments. Sometimes that's OK, sometimes you
need to make a leap. The "fastest storage available" means nothing to
most of the customers because they wouldn't even tax average performing
storage. What matters to customers is improvements in utility and Apple
has done little with that in the past five years.
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple reported it sold well, but IMHO that's mainly because it was a
long, long while since the last update.
You wouldn't know since you don't have access to the data.
Apple has made vague public statements about it, that's the best anyone
can do who isn't a major shareholder or employee.
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple should have been in cars and homes with Siri long ago. The
Apple TV that Jobs said he solved should have been out long ago.
Like the music industry that came before it, the television/movie
industry doesn't want what Apple wants - they want the status quo or
to rape people's wallets more. Anyone who has watched Apple knows
often the entire world does not bend to Apple's will overnight; and
that's not all Apple's fault.
LOL! And of course we all know that Apple would never take from your
wallet... Dude, that is what for-profit companies do: they get as much
for their products as they can. If not, they don't stay in business.
Apple charges a premium price for its products because they can position
them as premium products. My employer gave me an HP Windows laptop to
use for work- it was such a piece of crap that I gave it back and went
out and bought a used MBA to dedicate to my job on my own dime.
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple has superior products but they are all long in the tooth.
Not for most people, as far as I can tell. I'm perfectly happy with my
2008 Mac Pro, 2011 MacBook Pro, 2012 Mac mini Server, iPhone SE, and
assorted other older Apple computers and accessories all in use daily.
The same can be said of most of the Apple users I know both
professionally and personally. There are minor gripes as there always
have been, but no overwhelming general complaint about Apple's current
products.
My list is above. So? Apple products have- at least for me- had long
service lives. I bought my 512Ke in 1986, then a PB145B around 1992-93,
then an iMac in 1998, then the iBook and other products as noted above.
Along the way I had a bunch of other "hey, you like Macs, do you want
our old IIci?" Macs which I used as web servers for years. I liked that
old IIci, it ran NetBSD like a champ too.
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
What Apple no longer has is a singular driving vision to innovate and
renovate.
You wouldn't know. Apple doesn't make road maps and future plans
public. You're just trolling.
Or pointing out the state of the emperor's wardrobe.
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
Cook doesn't have it; Ive doesn't have it; Cue doesn't have it;
Federighi doesn't have it, etc., etc.
That must be why Steve Jobs himself hand picked them to lead Apple
after he left: because none of them have what it takes. If only Steve
had talked with you!
Nah, I'd have been less than useful in that regard. But the current
leadership at Apple has not advanced the company in terms of innovation,
although they have done quite well in terms of revenue.
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
As much as I was a denier that Jobs was an actual leader or innovator
He was a true visionary who propelled Apple to its greatest heights
and changed entire industries for the better; only idiots will argue
that.
Post by Tim McNamara
- I never thought he was anything more than an opportunist taking
credit for the innovations of others-
What a nasty thing to say about someone - anyone - you don't even know
personally.
Oh dear, did I offend your believe in St. Steven?

The guy's personality was on public view for years, Roger. However, in
your zeal to pillory me for daring to disagree with your veneration for
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
clearly I was wrong because Apple basically hasn't done anything new
in five years with its current leadership.i
See, that was the point of that. But perhaps you can brush up on your
reading comprehension.
Post by Jolly Roger
Liar. Apple's done *lots* in the past few years.
Post by Tim McNamara
Well, they've built a fancy new office building.
Way more than that. Troll on, if it helps you feel better about
yourself though.
LOL! Roger, sometimes you are a bit dense, not to mention hidebound and
reactionary. This is one of those times.
nospam
2017-01-07 20:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
and the Watch which is a tiny emasculated iPhone.
It's *better* than a phone in many ways.
LOL! Except you can't make much use of it without an iPhone...
wrong again.

you clearly don't have an apple watch and know very little about it.

and let's not forget that iphones *required* a mac or pc for the first
few years.
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Tim McNamara
The new Mac laptop is pretty much just silly with a gimmick (although
someone might find a way to make the gimmick actually useful).
It's also got some of the fastest storage available on a laptop. And
it excels in other areas too. You are ignoring all of the good to
troll on the bad; so your opinion isn't worth much.
The "good" is in tiny increments. Sometimes that's OK, sometimes you
need to make a leap. The "fastest storage available" means nothing to
most of the customers because they wouldn't even tax average performing
storage. What matters to customers is improvements in utility and Apple
has done little with that in the past five years.
completely wrong.

fast ssd is very noticeable for anything that is i/o bound, which are
most tasks that most people do.
Lewis
2017-01-06 00:38:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim McNamara
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's failure
to produce anything new since Jobs died.
Oh, you can fuck right off trollshit.
--
No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us.
It's Them that do the bad things.
Tim McNamara
2017-01-07 05:54:11 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 00:38:20 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tim McNamara
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's
failure to produce anything new since Jobs died.
Oh, you can fuck right off trollshit.
My, my, well I guess that put me in my place. Brilliant argumentation
there, Lewis. Cogent, pithy, well reasoned.

Or, you know, not.
JF Mezei
2017-01-06 02:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim McNamara
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's failure
to produce anything new since Jobs died.
In the case of the MacPro, iNtel hasn't releases a significant chip
upgrade since 2013 in the high end. When I bought my Pro last June, the
chip was still listed as current, despite being 3 years old.
Post by Tim McNamara
milking the iPhone as long as they can and they appear to have nothing-
nothing at all- in the tank.
"appear" is the keyword here. It could be true that they are running on
empty, or they may be ablt to release the next best thing since sliced
bread. (the iToaster ? :-)
Post by Tim McNamara
just is a bigger iPhone with softening sales and the Watch which is a
tiny emasculated iPhone.
Apple launched a generic iWatch, saw the market was focused on sports,
so second generation is focused more on sports. We'll see where that
takes it. Apple can afford to think long term, and this is good.
Post by Tim McNamara
The new Mac laptop is pretty much just silly with a gimmick (although
I agree. We'll see where Apple goes with that bar. Problem is that Apple
has rarely gone back on big design decisions.
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple should have been in cars and homes with Siri long ago.
In case you haven't noticed, Apple has been laying lots of foundations
with Home Kit, Siri etc. Has hadded Siri to the Apple TV box. With all
components laid, Apple could be coming out with something very
compelling and far mroe integrated than what Google or Amazon are doing.

There is potential there. Sometimes, the early guy comes out with
prototype that is cute but not much use, and Apple can come in later
with a finished product with all the integration etc that makes it
compelling. (look at MP3 players. Apple came in late, but created the
iTunes store , Itunes app to manage music etc and made it far more
compelling than standalone MP3 p;layers that were already on market.
Post by Tim McNamara
The Apple
TV that Jobs said he solved should have been out long ago.
Actually, the Apple TV box, despite terrible UI, is the correct strategy
for Apple. In case you didn't notice, there is no money selling actial
large TV sets. And those large TVs stay there for years and years (and
no software upgrades from manufacturer aftyer a year or two). And large
TVs need physical installation and special delivery something Apple
isn't equipped to do.


So the separate inexpensive box is the right solution, with an "open"
store to add apps to the box.

Apple's "hobby" may have gotten there by chance, but they have the right
solution. But there is competition from Roku and from cablecos.

(Whether Apple will get into content is a different story).
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple no longer has is a singular driving vision to innovate and
renovate. Cook doesn't have it; Ive doesn't have it;
They innovate plenty, but not in the direction I like. They insist on
going thinner while I would refere keeping more ports, bigger battery
for longer autonomy etc. But just because I don't like the changes
doesn't mean they don't innovate.

The other important aspect is that both computers and now phones have
become mature products where innovation is slowing. Biut Apple still
manages substantlial CPU speed increases every year on its iPhones.
Post by Tim McNamara
new in five years with its current leadership. Well, they've built a
fancy new office building.
Which was designed under Jobs.
Tim McNamara
2017-01-07 06:11:25 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 21:18:54 -0500, JF Mezei
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Tim McNamara
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's
failure to produce anything new since Jobs died.
In the case of the MacPro, iNtel hasn't releases a significant chip
upgrade since 2013 in the high end. When I bought my Pro last June,
the chip was still listed as current, despite being 3 years old.
And yet progress can continue.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Tim McNamara
milking the iPhone as long as they can and they appear to have
nothing- nothing at all- in the tank.
"appear" is the keyword here. It could be true that they are running
on empty, or they may be ablt to release the next best thing since
sliced bread. (the iToaster ? :-)
You are correct, which is why I used "appear" in my statement. Apple of
course does not send me advance notice of their products. They may have
some hot stuff in the pipeline- Tim Cook has been telling us that's the
case for five years now.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Tim McNamara
just is a bigger iPhone with softening sales and the Watch which is a
tiny emasculated iPhone.
Apple launched a generic iWatch, saw the market was focused on sports,
so second generation is focused more on sports. We'll see where that
takes it. Apple can afford to think long term, and this is good.
Indeed. Once upon a time the sport angle would have interested me (when
I was a competitive athlete- the Polar HRM was hot stuff back then as an
aid for training; the Watch, FiBit, etc., offer a whole lot more in that
market).
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Tim McNamara
The new Mac laptop is pretty much just silly with a gimmick (although
I agree. We'll see where Apple goes with that bar. Problem is that
Apple has rarely gone back on big design decisions.
Well, it may not be what Apple does with that bar versus what other
developers do with it. Just as much of the success of the iPhone has a
lot to do with app developers who aren't Apple.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple should have been in cars and homes with Siri long ago.
In case you haven't noticed, Apple has been laying lots of foundations
with Home Kit, Siri etc. Has hadded Siri to the Apple TV box. With
all components laid, Apple could be coming out with something very
compelling and far mroe integrated than what Google or Amazon are doing.
True, there is some of that. But Apple seems to be much behind their
competition in that regard.
Post by JF Mezei
There is potential there. Sometimes, the early guy comes out with
prototype that is cute but not much use, and Apple can come in later
with a finished product with all the integration etc that makes it
compelling. (look at MP3 players. Apple came in late, but created the
iTunes store , Itunes app to manage music etc and made it far more
compelling than standalone MP3 p;layers that were already on market.
Good point. Apple has done that very succesfully more than once- the
iPod, iPhone, iPad and potentially the Watch eign cases in point.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Tim McNamara
The Apple TV that Jobs said he solved should have been out long ago.
Actually, the Apple TV box, despite terrible UI, is the correct
strategy for Apple. In case you didn't notice, there is no money
selling actial large TV sets. And those large TVs stay there for years
and years (and no software upgrades from manufacturer aftyer a year or
two). And large TVs need physical installation and special delivery
something Apple isn't equipped to do.
Well, it was the UI that Jobs claimed he solved prior to his death.
That could be done in an actual TV or in a TV-side box. Roku has come
out with a very good TV as well as their excellent boxes. I don't know
how profitable the Roku smart TVs are, though. Could be they are
sucking pond water with those.
Post by JF Mezei
So the separate inexpensive box is the right solution, with an "open"
store to add apps to the box.
Apple's "hobby" may have gotten there by chance, but they have the
right solution. But there is competition from Roku and from cablecos.
(Whether Apple will get into content is a different story).
Well, that's something that of course remains to be seen. But given
Jobs's claim of having solved the UI, I would have expected to see that
by now. I've got a Roku (3? Maybe.) and it's an excellent product. I
use that far more than I watch normal TV.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Tim McNamara
Apple no longer has is a singular driving vision to innovate and
renovate. Cook doesn't have it; Ive doesn't have it;
They innovate plenty, but not in the direction I like. They insist on
going thinner while I would refere keeping more ports, bigger battery
for longer autonomy etc. But just because I don't like the changes
doesn't mean they don't innovate.
Ah, hum, that's worth pondering. To my eyes there has been incremental
futzing around wth specs, not actual innovation in terms of utility for
the customer.
Post by JF Mezei
The other important aspect is that both computers and now phones have
become mature products where innovation is slowing. Biut Apple still
manages substantlial CPU speed increases every year on its iPhones.
I don't know if Moore's Law is reaching the end of its descriptive
accuracy, but at least the rate of increase in raw power seems to be
flattening. At some point, there's not a lot of increased utility to be
found in faster chips. Eyes will turn to energy efficiency, size, etc.,
as places where profitable gains can be made.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Tim McNamara
new in five years with its current leadership. Well, they've built a
fancy new office building.
Which was designed under Jobs.
Yep. Kind of my point in including it...
Davoud
2017-01-06 19:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim McNamara
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's failure
to produce anything new since Jobs died. Other companies have updated
their product regardless of Intel. Apple is in a holding pattern
milking the iPhone as long as they can and they appear to have nothing-
nothing at all- in the tank.
They've got the iPhone of which sales are OK (would be great for most
other companies but only so-so for Apple), the iPad which pretty much
just is a bigger iPhone with softening sales and the Watch which is a
tiny emasculated iPhone.
The new Mac laptop is pretty much just silly with a gimmick (although
someone might find a way to make the gimmick actually useful). Apple
reported it sold well, but IMHO that's mainly because it was a long,
long while since the last update.
Apple should have been in cars and homes with Siri long ago. The Apple
TV that Jobs said he solved should have been out long ago.
Apple has superior products but they are all long in the tooth. What
Apple no longer has is a singular driving vision to innovate and
renovate. Cook doesn't have it; Ive doesn't have it; Cue doesn't have
it; Federighi doesn't have it, etc., etc. As much as I was a denier
that Jobs was an actual leader or innovator- I never thought he was
anything more than an opportunist taking credit for the innovations of
others- clearly I was wrong because Apple basically hasn't done anything
new in five years with its current leadership. Well, they've built a
fancy new office building.
I would like to point out that you are dead wrong. Would like to, but I
can't because I fear that you are largely correct. I have a ton of
questions for Apple management, starting with why isn't Siri the front
end of Watson? Why does Amazon Echo own the home market for speech
recognition? Why sacrifice utility for looks on the MacBook Pro, which
seems more like a Playskool toy than a professional computer? Where are
the Mac Pros? If you're finished with the Mac, just tell us so that we
can begin the transition to Windows. What happened to the "vision?" And
on and on.

Siri, by the way, is implemented in my 2016 Lexus. But it's not
implemented properly, not fully integrated. Has a separate switch from
the rest of the speech recognition system, which is a complication, not
a simplification. The switch is a press-and-hold, not
touch-and-release. And on and on, again.
--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
nospam
2017-01-06 20:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davoud
Post by Tim McNamara
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's failure
to produce anything new since Jobs died. Other companies have updated
their product regardless of Intel. Apple is in a holding pattern
milking the iPhone as long as they can and they appear to have nothing-
nothing at all- in the tank.
They've got the iPhone of which sales are OK (would be great for most
other companies but only so-so for Apple), the iPad which pretty much
just is a bigger iPhone with softening sales and the Watch which is a
tiny emasculated iPhone.
The new Mac laptop is pretty much just silly with a gimmick (although
someone might find a way to make the gimmick actually useful). Apple
reported it sold well, but IMHO that's mainly because it was a long,
long while since the last update.
Apple should have been in cars and homes with Siri long ago. The Apple
TV that Jobs said he solved should have been out long ago.
Apple has superior products but they are all long in the tooth. What
Apple no longer has is a singular driving vision to innovate and
renovate. Cook doesn't have it; Ive doesn't have it; Cue doesn't have
it; Federighi doesn't have it, etc., etc. As much as I was a denier
that Jobs was an actual leader or innovator- I never thought he was
anything more than an opportunist taking credit for the innovations of
others- clearly I was wrong because Apple basically hasn't done anything
new in five years with its current leadership. Well, they've built a
fancy new office building.
I would like to point out that you are dead wrong. Would like to, but I
can't because I fear that you are largely correct. I have a ton of
questions for Apple management, starting with why isn't Siri the front
end of Watson?
because there's no pressing need for that.
Post by Davoud
Why does Amazon Echo own the home market for speech
recognition?
they don't. amazon echo requires an amazon account and only works in
the usa. also, that market is rapidly becoming crowded with
competitors.
Post by Davoud
Why sacrifice utility for looks on the MacBook Pro, which
seems more like a Playskool toy than a professional computer?
nonsense. it's a *very* capable computer, with one of the fastest ssds
of any computer along with 4 of the fastest ports on any computer
currently available.
Post by Davoud
Where are
the Mac Pros? If you're finished with the Mac, just tell us so that we
can begin the transition to Windows. What happened to the "vision?" And
on and on.
ask intel why the chips suitable for the mac pro aren't ready yet.
Post by Davoud
Siri, by the way, is implemented in my 2016 Lexus. But it's not
implemented properly, not fully integrated. Has a separate switch from
the rest of the speech recognition system, which is a complication, not
a simplification. The switch is a press-and-hold, not
touch-and-release. And on and on, again.
car makers do a shitty job of incorporating technology, which is one
reason why apple has carplay and is reportedly working on additional
vehicle technology (if not an entire vehicle although that rumour seems
a bit much).
Calum
2017-01-06 21:30:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
they don't. amazon echo requires an amazon account and only works in
the usa.
That hasn't been true for a while. You can also buy and use them in the
UK and Germany.
nospam
2017-01-06 21:35:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calum
Post by nospam
they don't. amazon echo requires an amazon account and only works in
the usa.
That hasn't been true for a while. You can also buy and use them in the
UK and Germany.
ok, three countries now. the point is that most of the planet can't use
it even if they wanted to.
Lewis
2017-01-07 01:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calum
Post by nospam
they don't. amazon echo requires an amazon account and only works in
the usa.
That hasn't been true for a while. You can also buy and use them in the
UK and Germany.
Woohoo!

That's 7 billion people who can't get it.
--
It is the business of the future to be dangerous.
Tim McNamara
2017-01-07 06:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davoud
Post by Tim McNamara
Bullshit on blaming Intel or anyone other than Apple for Apple's
failure to produce anything new since Jobs died. Other companies
have updated their product regardless of Intel. Apple is in a
holding pattern milking the iPhone as long as they can and they
appear to have nothing- nothing at all- in the tank.
They've got the iPhone of which sales are OK (would be great for most
other companies but only so-so for Apple), the iPad which pretty much
just is a bigger iPhone with softening sales and the Watch which is a
tiny emasculated iPhone.
The new Mac laptop is pretty much just silly with a gimmick (although
someone might find a way to make the gimmick actually useful). Apple
reported it sold well, but IMHO that's mainly because it was a long,
long while since the last update.
Apple should have been in cars and homes with Siri long ago. The
Apple TV that Jobs said he solved should have been out long ago.
Apple has superior products but they are all long in the tooth. What
Apple no longer has is a singular driving vision to innovate and
renovate. Cook doesn't have it; Ive doesn't have it; Cue doesn't
have it; Federighi doesn't have it, etc., etc. As much as I was a
denier that Jobs was an actual leader or innovator- I never thought
he was anything more than an opportunist taking credit for the
innovations of others- clearly I was wrong because Apple basically
hasn't done anything new in five years with its current leadership.
Well, they've built a fancy new office building.
I would like to point out that you are dead wrong. Would like to, but
I can't because I fear that you are largely correct. I have a ton of
questions for Apple management, starting with why isn't Siri the front
end of Watson? Why does Amazon Echo own the home market for speech
recognition? Why sacrifice utility for looks on the MacBook Pro, which
seems more like a Playskool toy than a professional computer? Where
are the Mac Pros? If you're finished with the Mac, just tell us so
that we can begin the transition to Windows. What happened to the
"vision?" And on and on.
This is one of those things where I'd love to be dead wrong. And maybe
I am with Apple just playing it very close to the vest and having some
hot stuff percolating. I haven't had the sense that this is the case,
however. But we can hope.
Post by Davoud
Siri, by the way, is implemented in my 2016 Lexus. But it's not
implemented properly, not fully integrated. Has a separate switch from
the rest of the speech recognition system, which is a complication, not
a simplification. The switch is a press-and-hold, not
touch-and-release. And on and on, again.
Huh. Not very Apple like, but as others have pointed out the early days
of implementation can be slow going. I am glad to hear that your car
actually does have Siri. The implementation in my car is through
Bluetooth- the car really just being the speakers for my iPhone- and I
generally leave it off because of the battery suckage.
Davoud
2017-01-07 17:21:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by Davoud
Siri, by the way, is implemented in my 2016 Lexus. But it's not
implemented properly, not fully integrated. Has a separate switch from
the rest of the speech recognition system, which is a complication, not
a simplification. The switch is a press-and-hold, not
touch-and-release. And on and on, again.
Huh. Not very Apple like, but as others have pointed out the early days
of implementation can be slow going. I am glad to hear that your car
actually does have Siri. The implementation in my car is through
Bluetooth- the car really just being the speakers for my iPhone- and I
generally leave it off because of the battery suckage.
I didn't mean to imply that it is entirely independent in the Lexus. It
does require a Bluetooth connection to the iPhone. (I haven't tested a
USB connection.)

It's called Siri Eyes-Free, designed to do a limited set of tasks
without one having to take one's eyes off the road. It doesn't perform
any task that would require reading text on the car's display; brief
spoken responses only. I use it on rare occasions to send texts to my
wife. It can read her response, as well.
--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
JF Mezei
2017-01-05 18:30:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
who said it would be in a mac pro?
**IF** the Mac is going ARM, I suspect full platform migration will
happen, not just one laptop or one model.

MacPro and Mini may be first to see simply because they are next in line
for product updates (and likely used by a lot of developpers).

But i am sure the iMacs and MacBooks will follow really quickly to make
the full product suite ARM based within say 2 years.
nospam
2017-01-05 18:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
who said it would be in a mac pro?
**IF** the Mac is going ARM, I suspect full platform migration will
happen, not just one laptop or one model.
you suspect wrong.

the strength of an arm-mac is low power consumption, which is well
suited for laptops. desktops are not a high priority for switching.
yet.

there's still a need for high end multi-core intel macs, which is where
a mac pro or imac is a good choice.
Post by JF Mezei
MacPro and Mini may be first to see simply because they are next in line
for product updates (and likely used by a lot of developpers).
But i am sure the iMacs and MacBooks will follow really quickly to make
the full product suite ARM based within say 2 years.
the most likely candidate for the first arm-mac is the current retina
macbook.
Lewis
2017-01-06 00:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
who said it would be in a mac pro?
**IF** the Mac is going ARM, I suspect full platform migration will
happen, not just one laptop or one model.
MacPro and Mini may be first to see simply because they are next in line
for product updates (and likely used by a lot of developpers).
But i am sure the iMacs and MacBooks will follow really quickly to make
the full product suite ARM based within say 2 years.
Oh, they *could* do it. But will they? Signs point to no.
--
What are you, Ghouls? There are no dead students here. This week.
Alan Browne
2017-01-06 02:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
who said it would be in a mac pro?
**IF** the Mac is going ARM, I suspect full platform migration will
happen, not just one laptop or one model.
MacPro and Mini may be first to see simply because they are next in line
for product updates (and likely used by a lot of developpers).\
The first to go ARM will be the lightest platforms beginning with the
Air or whatever it becomes and the MacBook pros. After that perhaps
smaller iMacs and Minis. Last of all high end iMacs and whatever the
next Mac Pro is.

A Mac Pro is about GPU power - ARM is about saving power.
Post by JF Mezei
But i am sure the iMacs and MacBooks will follow really quickly to make
the full product suite ARM based within say 2 years.
The intel shift happened very quickly, but I suspect it will take quite
a while before an ARM Mac Pro comes out. Perhaps they will abandon the
segment completely.
--
"If war is God's way of teaching Americans geography, then
recession is His way of teaching everyone a little economics."
..Raj Patel, The Value of Nothing.
JF Mezei
2017-01-06 19:26:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
The first to go ARM will be the lightest platforms beginning with the
Air or whatever it becomes and the MacBook pros. After that perhaps
smaller iMacs and Minis. Last of all high end iMacs and whatever the
next Mac Pro is.
A Mac Pro is about GPU power - ARM is about saving power.
But if the Intel high end chip is stalled and Apple is able to produce a
CPU that is much faster with ARM, then it can attach them fancy graphic
cards to the MacPro and update the design.

Of OS-X is to move to ARM, then all of the ecosystem will be moved as
fast as possible, not just lightest laptops.
Alan Browne
2017-01-06 19:58:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
The first to go ARM will be the lightest platforms beginning with the
Air or whatever it becomes and the MacBook pros. After that perhaps
smaller iMacs and Minis. Last of all high end iMacs and whatever the
next Mac Pro is.
A Mac Pro is about GPU power - ARM is about saving power.
But if the Intel high end chip is stalled and Apple is able to produce a
CPU that is much faster with ARM, then it can attach them fancy graphic
cards to the MacPro and update the design.
Mac Pros have several Xeon cores (or i7?) to support all that. While
the "cost" of a Mac Pro's processing is mainly in the GPU's, the CPU's
are nothing to sneeze at either. And this is not ARM's bailiwick.
Post by JF Mezei
Of OS-X is to move to ARM, then all of the ecosystem will be moved as
fast as possible, not just lightest laptops.
With XCode and Apple's delivery system based on target processor there
is no urgency for Apple to transition the ecosystem. It is processor
agnostic even wrt to 3rd party apps delivered from App Store. That is
not the same as saying that ARM is ready to support the higher end Mac
Pro market. OTOH, the low end MBA's could likely do the "i5" class
workload with 4 - 8 cores w/o too much bother.

The issues of legacy code and being able to bootcamp windows or run it
in a VM are asides that Apple may ignore or not.
--
"If war is God's way of teaching Americans geography, then
recession is His way of teaching everyone a little economics."
..Raj Patel, The Value of Nothing.
android
2017-01-05 06:38:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by JF Mezei
There have long been rumours that Apple might consider the possibility
of forming a commitee to look into feasability of considering moving its
computers to ARM architecture.
apple is *well* past that.
Post by JF Mezei
Today at CES, Qualcomm announced that its new Snapdragon 835 will
support full Windows, including running legacy apps (not clear if via
emulator).
a few weeks ago, microsoft announced that they have 32 bit apps running
at usable speeds on arm chips.
things are about to get *real* interesting for the entire industry.
Soo... What's your idea of the ETA on them new ARM based Mac Pros?

<http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac_Pro>
--
Bats can't tell us apart!


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
android
2017-01-05 06:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by android
Post by nospam
Post by JF Mezei
There have long been rumours that Apple might consider the possibility
of forming a commitee to look into feasability of considering moving its
computers to ARM architecture.
apple is *well* past that.
Post by JF Mezei
Today at CES, Qualcomm announced that its new Snapdragon 835 will
support full Windows, including running legacy apps (not clear if via
emulator).
a few weeks ago, microsoft announced that they have 32 bit apps running
at usable speeds on arm chips.
things are about to get *real* interesting for the entire industry.
Soo... What's your idea of the ETA on them new ARM based Mac Pros?
<http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac_Pro>
Sorry 'bout the double posting. This gave the Galaxy the
hickups... Rebooted and fine now... Stay calm... The danger is
not iniment...
--
Bats can't tell us apart!


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Anonymous
2017-01-05 09:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by android
----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Android users are too cheap to buy a full version of an app?
android
2017-01-05 09:53:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anonymous
Post by android
----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Android users are too cheap to buy a full version of an app?
No. But there's no reason to either is it since it's offered for free?
And free apps blocks the marketplace for decent payware and thus they
hamper software development. I have yet to find any legal or moral
ground to prohibit people to donate their time into a black hole i e
freeware unless they are making attempts to dump or manipulate the
software market and/or gets contributions from vested third parties for
that purpose.
Grab them freeware downloads and if they does the job then use them. :-))
--
teleportation kills
android
2017-01-05 09:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anonymous
Post by android
----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Android users are too cheap to buy a full version of an app?
No. But there's no reason to either is it since it's offered for free?
And free apps blocks the marketplace for decent payware and thus they
hamper software development. I have yet to find any legal or moral
ground to prohibit people to donate their time into a black hole i e
freeware unless they are making attempts to dump or manipulate the
software market and/or gets contributions from vested third parties for
that purpose.
Grab them freeware downloads and if they do the job then use them. :-))
--
teleportation kills
Lewis
2017-01-06 00:34:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by android
Post by Anonymous
Post by android
----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Android users are too cheap to buy a full version of an app?
No.
Yes. Sales rates on android are absurdly low.
Post by android
But there's no reason to either is it since it's offered for free?
And free apps blocks the marketplace for decent payware and thus they
hamper software development.
Free apps with spyware, viruses, rootkits, and all sorts of bullshit
tricks to track the user and harvest all personal data. Yeah, android is
lovely, lovely for a cesspit of vipers.
--
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
nospam
2017-01-05 14:49:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anonymous
Android users are too cheap to buy a full version of an app?
usually.
Lewis
2017-01-05 07:46:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
There have long been rumours that Apple might consider the possibility
of forming a commitee to look into feasability of considering moving its
computers to ARM architecture.
WTF are you talking about? Who has said Apple was possibly forming a
committee? Oh, right, this is another thing you made up.
--
'What ho, b'zugda-hiara.' (Footnote: A killing insult in Dwarfish. It
means 'Lawn ornament'.) --Wyrd Sisters
Alan Browne
2017-01-06 02:42:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
There have long been rumours that Apple might consider the possibility
of forming a commitee to look into feasability of considering moving its
computers to ARM architecture.
Today at CES, Qualcomm announced that its new Snapdragon 835 will
support full Windows, including running legacy apps (not clear if via
emulator).
http://mobilesyrup.com/2017/01/03/with-the-snapdragon-835-qualcomm-aims-to-move-into-pc-silicon/
Any chance there might be industry-wide move from x86 to ARM or is this
some PR attempt that is more likely to fizzle without any impact on the
industry ?
Should iindustry go ARM, it would make for interesting dynamics with
Apple able to produce its own chips and perhaps giving it an edge, while
the remmaining PC makers would relty on Qualcom and maybe intel for ARM
based chips ?
(In 1997, Intel acquired StrongARM righst from Digital Equipent corp, so
I wonder if there is anything usable from that agreement today in terms
of Intel dciding to produce ARM chips or whether it would have to
negotiate whole new agreement.
Since ARM is a fab-less company, it wouldn't have objections to Intel or
AMD using its designs, would it ?
That announcement has nothing at all to do with Apple. If (when) Apple
do so it will be on their own Ax platform. Apple do not produce their
own chips - or much of anything for that matter - everything is
contract/build to spec or build to print.

As to what was announced the intent to "support legacy applications"
clearly requires emulation which is the opposite of performance. Those
s/w makers can decide if they will issue their packages in ARM. This is
not the nightmare it once was. Most compilers support many processors
and most OS's and applications are very remote from the h/w these days.

As to intel it has a much narrower slice of the ARM pie. IIRC mainly
for controllers and other embedded solutions.

As to the industry, there remains that segment that needs powerful i7 or
better class 64 bit processors. Getting ARM to that level requires a
lot more cores. Feasible to be sure - not urgent at all.
--
"If war is God's way of teaching Americans geography, then
recession is His way of teaching everyone a little economics."
..Raj Patel, The Value of Nothing.
JF Mezei
2017-01-06 19:23:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
That announcement has nothing at all to do with Apple. If (when) Apple
do so it will be on their own Ax platform. Apple do not produce their
own chips - or much of anything for that matter - everything is
contract/build to spec or build to print.
"own Ax platform" isn't quite right. ARM still owns the IP on the ARM
achitecture, and I suspect Apple still very dependent on standard ARM
compilers.
Post by Alan Browne
As to intel it has a much narrower slice of the ARM pie. IIRC mainly
for controllers and other embedded solutions.
But if the PC industry starts to move to ARM, would Intel agressively
get into the ARM chip market too ?
Post by Alan Browne
As to the industry, there remains that segment that needs powerful i7 or
better class 64 bit processors. Getting ARM to that level requires a
lot more cores. Feasible to be sure - not urgent at all.
But Intel could design a 12 core ARM chip if it wanted. Just as Apple
desgns a dual core with one core running at slower clock rate (to same
power).

Or it could spurr Intel to rejuvenate the x86 to compete. If x86 ceases
to be "industry standard", it opens the door to say Power for servers
and ARM for PC/mobile.


In fact, a couple years ago, when HP was aim-less for servers, it was
thinking about using ARM for server farms where the power savings would
be huge. Not sure where that went. So even ARM could potentially do servers.
Alan Browne
2017-01-06 19:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
That announcement has nothing at all to do with Apple. If (when) Apple
do so it will be on their own Ax platform. Apple do not produce their
own chips - or much of anything for that matter - everything is
contract/build to spec or build to print.
"own Ax platform" isn't quite right.
In the context of your article where Qualcomm have "their" ARM platform,
of course it does.


ARM still owns the IP on the ARM

No shit. See above.
Post by JF Mezei
achitecture, and I suspect Apple still very dependent on standard ARM
compilers.
Who knows. But Apple's Ax is unique to Apple and Apple's needs and
Apple's advances. That's all that counts. As to the compilers they are
easily attached to XCode or modified to do so.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
As to intel it has a much narrower slice of the ARM pie. IIRC mainly
for controllers and other embedded solutions.
But if the PC industry starts to move to ARM, would Intel agressively
get into the ARM chip market too ?
That's up to intel. Follow the crowd or innovate and supplant ARM.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
As to the industry, there remains that segment that needs powerful i7 or
better class 64 bit processors. Getting ARM to that level requires a
lot more cores. Feasible to be sure - not urgent at all.
But Intel could design a 12 core ARM chip if it wanted. Just as Apple
desgns a dual core with one core running at slower clock rate (to same
power).
Yes, I've alluded (in past posts) to the cheapest path to processing
power is simply to throw more ARM cores at it. That's appealing because
an idle computer can run on one or 2 cores, there can be cores with
different processing power (like the later Ax chips), and so on.
Post by JF Mezei
Or it could spurr Intel to rejuvenate the x86 to compete. If x86 ceases
to be "industry standard", it opens the door to say Power for servers
and ARM for PC/mobile.
That's up to intel. The x86 architecture is not going away soon no
matter what Microsoft / Qualcomm do.
Post by JF Mezei
In fact, a couple years ago, when HP was aim-less for servers, it was
thinking about using ARM for server farms where the power savings would
be huge. Not sure where that went. So even ARM could potentially do servers.
There are some ARM server platforms but I don't believe they've gained a
lot of traction to date.
--
"If war is God's way of teaching Americans geography, then
recession is His way of teaching everyone a little economics."
..Raj Patel, The Value of Nothing.
Colonel Pannick
2017-01-06 20:53:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
There have long been rumours that Apple might consider the possibility
of forming a commitee to look into feasability of considering moving its
computers to ARM architecture.
Fake news, dude. I'm in the regular Friday night poker game with Tim,
Eddy, Jony, and Craig...and it's never come up- not even once.
--
History teaches us that men and nations only behave wisely once they
have exhausted all other alternatives.
- Abba Eben
Electric Comet
2017-01-15 18:25:26 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 20:21:23 -0500
Post by JF Mezei
of forming a commitee to look into feasability of considering moving
its computers to ARM architecture.
the perf that subscribers have come to expect from x86_64 cannot be
matched by arm

but concurrent processing is the thing now so maybe they can figure out
a way divide the tasks up and make it work on concurrent processors


power8 would make sense but price is prohibitively high now
Siri Cruise
2017-01-15 23:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Electric Comet
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 20:21:23 -0500
Post by JF Mezei
of forming a commitee to look into feasability of considering moving
its computers to ARM architecture.
the perf that subscribers have come to expect from x86_64 cannot be
matched by arm
I don't care. MacOSX and Unix are not tied to particular CPUs. I know Linux had
been ported once to run under Mach. Even Microsoft has non-Intel abortions
running.
Post by Electric Comet
but concurrent processing is the thing now so maybe they can figure out
a way divide the tasks up and make it work on concurrent processors
This is hard problem in program because it's hard for programmers to exploit
parallelism with good data segregation.
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
Free the Amos Yee one.
Yeah, too bad about your so-called life. Ha-ha.
Electric Comet
2017-01-16 20:58:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 15:11:08 -0800
Post by Siri Cruise
I don't care. MacOSX and Unix are not tied to particular CPUs. I know
lots do care about perf
Post by Siri Cruise
Linux had been ported once to run under Mach. Even Microsoft has
non-Intel abortions running.
windows 10 iot runs on arm
Post by Siri Cruise
This is hard problem in program because it's hard for programmers to
exploit parallelism with good data segregation.
manage it with hardware
just need a processor for that

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